# White supremacists are the biggest ideological threat to American lives, by far **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449 "2019-08-10T12:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/61 "2019-08-11T18:34:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > k9bfriender, you start out with this premise “white supremacy is the biggest threat” and try to shoehorn it into everything. Agreed. This line in particular struck me as silly nonsense: “at this time, the one that we are living in, the one that we are affected by and the one that we can effect, the most likely motivator to initiate world ending nuclear exchanges is white supremacy.” It’s just stupid on its face. If we’re going to have a nuclear “exchange” with anyone big enough to be considered “world-ending”, the only candidate is Russia, a country full of white people. How is “white supremacy” supposed to figure into two predominately-white countries having a world-ending nuclear exchange (not to mention that if there’s even a half-truth behind the Dems incessant howling of “Russia! Russia! Russia!” since the 2016 election, then President Trump should be exactly the _least_-likely president to nuke Russia that we’ve had for as long as we’ve had nukes). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/62 "2019-08-11T19:22:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > k9bfriender, you start out with this premise “white supremacy is the biggest threat” and try to shoehorn it into everything. That’s because it works its way into nearly everything. That’s my point. It is infectious and insidious. I see plenty of hateful and dehumanizing language right in this very thread that is a result of white supremacy influence. Your steeping in it, and you don’t even know or care. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Agreed. This line in particular struck me as silly nonsense: > > “at this time, the one that we are living in, the one that we are affected by and the one that we can effect, the most likely motivator to initiate world ending nuclear exchanges is white supremacy.” > > It’s just stupid on its face. Is it really necessary for you bring out so much hostility in order for you to participate in an online discussion? :dubious: Anyway, moving on… > [@](#): > > If we’re going to have a nuclear “exchange” with anyone big enough to be considered “world-ending”, the only candidate is Russia, a country full of white people. How is “white supremacy” supposed to figure into two predominately-white countries having a world-ending nuclear exchange I said initiate. And yes, dropping a “small” tactical nuke on Iran is initiating a nuclear weapon escalation. Do you really think that Russia is going to appreciate us detonating nukes in their backyard? > [@](#): > > (not to mention that if there’s even a half-truth behind the Dems incessant howling of “Russia! Russia! Russia!” since the 2016 election, then President Trump should be exactly the _least_-likely president to nuke Russia that we’ve had for as long as we’ve had nukes). Putin did not help Trump get into office because they were pals, he helped him get into office to destabilize our country. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/63 "2019-08-11T21:07:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [White Supremacists Did 73 Murders Since Charlottesville](https://forward.com/fast-forward/429227/white-supremacist-murder-charlottesville/) > > White supremacists have murdered 73 people since the Charlottesville march. I don’t believe any other ideology, including extremist versions of Islam, comes close. I’ve thought that the thread title has been accurate for pretty much all of American history, but it’s becoming more urgently dangerous in the last couple of years, as compared to recent decades. > > This has always been the worst of America, and the biggest ideological danger to Americans, IMO. If you disagree, what other ideology do you think possess such a clear and deadly threat to Americans? That seems an awfully low number, to be honest. I’m guessing you aren’t going by deaths, but put that in for impact? I was thinking of ideologies that caused deaths, so I did a quick google search. Know how many Americans die each year from vaccine preventable diseases? It’s almost 4 orders of magnitude more…and this doesn’t even touch on how many die in other countries because Americans push for no vaccines there. I was a bit surprised on the magnitude (50k-90k is the estimate). Anyway, I do think that nationalism is on the rise, and it’s certainly dangerous. White supremacist’s though? I did another quick google search on this and found that the FBI says there is around 1100 (and a cross check by civil rights organizations seem to corroborate that with estimates from 900-1000) such groups in the US in 2018 with an average of 100 in each (this is up btw since 2016…wonder why?..where it was less than 700). That’s 110000 people. Even if that’s off by an order of magnitude, it seems a pretty small number of folks to be the greatest ideological threat to the US, unless you are using a very loose definition of ‘white supremacist’ (I only read the OP, so you might have later clarified). Nationalism, though…yeah, I could see that as being a big threat to US ideology depending on your perspective. Of course, what is or isn’t a threat is going to depend on the view point of the person making the judgement. But, world wide, I think nationalism is on the rise, and Trump’s own brand certainly has a lot of followers and is certainly a threat. ETA: I think the biggest threat to the US isn’t from an ideology, even one as toxic as white supremacists’. I think ignorance is the biggest threat to the US, and I think that Trump and his supporters exemplifies this issue perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/64 "2019-08-11T21:41:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Is it really necessary for you bring out so much hostility in order for you to participate in an online discussion? :dubious: … For this board, “silly nonsense” and “stupid on its face” are incredibly tame. If you want to start making a habit of calling out “hostility” though, I could probably point you in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/65 "2019-08-11T22:19:51Z")
I’ve got a question about the claim in the OP: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [White Supremacists Did 73 Murders Since Charlottesville](https://forward.com/fast-forward/429227/white-supremacist-murder-charlottesville/) > > White supremacists have murdered 73 people since the Charlottesville march. … The source for that “murdered 73” figure appears to be [this ADL report](https://www.adl.org/blog/two-years-ago-they-marched-in-charlottesville-where-are-they-now): > [@](#): > > White supremacists have committed at least 73 murders since Charlottesville, 39 of which were clearly motivated by hateful, racist ideology. These numbers include the deadly white supremacist shooting rampages in Parkland, Pittsburgh, Poway and El Paso, the deadliest white supremacist attack in more than 50 years. Parkland seems like a weird inclusion in that list. There’s rather scant evidence that the Parkland shooter was a white supremacist (the most I’ve found is [this CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting-suspect/index.html) which says “A user going by the name of Nikolas Cruz also included slurs against blacks and Muslims in his posts.”) and virtually nothing that indicates that his motive for shooting up the school was racial animosity. In the [creepy-as-hell videos](https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-florida-school-shooting-suspect-videos-20180530-story.html) he recorded the day of the shooting, the closest he gets to offering a motive was “I’ve had enough being told what to do and when to do.” Seems like more than a stretch to claim his attack was “clearly” motivated by white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/66 "2019-08-11T22:31:34Z")
> **[Stoneman Douglas High School shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneman_Douglas_High_School_shooting#Suspect)** > > On February 14, 2018, 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz opened fire on students and staff at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in the Miami suburban town of Parkland, Florida, murdering 17 people\[note 2\] and injuring 17 others. Cruz, a former student at the school, fled the scene on foot by blending in with other students, and was arrested without incident approximately one hour later in nearby Coral Springs. Police and prosecutors investigated "a pattern of disciplinary issues and unnervin The kil... “Police said that he held “extremist” views; social media accounts that were thought to be linked to him contained anti-black and anti-Muslim slurs.” “Items recovered by police at the scene included gun magazines with swastikas carved in them. One student reported that Cruz had drawn a swastika and the words “I hate niggers” on his backpack.” “CNN reported that Cruz was in a private Instagram group chat where he expressed racist, homophobic, antisemitic, and anti-immigrant (xenophobic) views. He said he wanted to kill gay people and Mexicans, and talked about keeping black people in chains. He said he hated black people “simply because they were black,” and Jewish people because he believed “they wanted to destroy the world.” He also referred to white women who engaged in interracial relationships as traitors.” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/67 "2019-08-11T22:32:48Z")
> [@XT](#): > > That seems an awfully low number, to be honest. I’m guessing you aren’t going by deaths, but put that in for impact? I was thinking of ideologies that caused deaths, so I did a quick google search. Know how many Americans die each year from vaccine preventable diseases? It’s almost 4 orders of magnitude more…and this doesn’t even touch on how many die in other countries because Americans push for no vaccines there. I was a bit surprised on the magnitude (50k-90k is the estimate). I’ve wondered if killing Osama bin Laden was worth it due to this effect. Since there’s nothing to fuel a conspiracy theory like the conspiracy theory occasionally turning out to be true, the CIA finding bin Laden through a fake vaccination campaign certainly fed the anti-vax flames in Pakistan, leading to who knows how many deaths, versus the possible deaths that bin Laden could have organized. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/68 "2019-08-11T23:05:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve got a question about the claim in the OP: > > The source for that “murdered 73” figure appears to be [this ADL report](https://www.adl.org/blog/two-years-ago-they-marched-in-charlottesville-where-are-they-now): Even if we grant their numbers. In a country with 330 million people a rally with 330 attendees is no big deal. 36 people killed a year is no threat either. More people are killed by lightning, stinging insects, and lawn mowers. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/69 "2019-08-12T00:06:53Z")
On purpose? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/70 "2019-08-12T02:11:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, we went to fight fascism, which is an infectious ideology that takes very good root in the fertile soil of white supremacy. You are right that we didn’t care about them wiping out their own Jews or taking over Poland, but the fact that it wasn’t stopping there, that is was continuing to grow without being sated, was why we ended up needing to fight it. We didn’t really care that they were fascist, either. We only cared that they wanted to take over everything else. It wouldn’t have mattered if they were theocratic, fascist, communist, imperialistic or even democratic until they started rolling tanks into areas we actually cared about. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/71 "2019-08-12T13:05:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Even if we grant their numbers. > In a country with 330 million people a rally with 330 attendees is no big deal. 36 people killed a year is no threat either. More people are killed by lightning, stinging insects, and lawn mowers. Hate crime is widely under-reported, [according to police](https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/the-hate-crimes/). Additionally, a recent [FBI report revealed that 87% of hate crime is not reported](https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/us/charlottesville-heather-heyer-death-not-in-fbi-report-soh/index.html) as such: > [@](#): > > The FBI says 16,149 law enforcement agencies in the country participate in their program. Of those, only 2,040, or less than 13%, reported a total of 7,175 crimes. > That means 87% of the participating agencies reported zero hate crimes in 2017. An example, as linked above, is Heather Hayer, who’s murder, despite the high profile of the case was not reported as a hate crime. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/72 "2019-08-12T13:24:51Z")
So all those people doing the shooting in Chicago, Baltimore, and Detroit are white? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/73 "2019-08-12T13:36:16Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So all those people doing the shooting in Chicago, Baltimore, and Detroit are white? You know the Sesame Street song, “One of these things is not like the others”?.. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/74 "2019-08-12T13:39:08Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > How are you measuring ‘dangerous’? Is it overall body count? The very first sentence of the OP makes this clear. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So all those people doing the shooting in Chicago, Baltimore, and Detroit are white? The OP makes it amply clear that he is not discussing common crime, but is discussing ideologically motivated murder, e.g. terrorism. Common crime isn’t an “ideology.” \*\* It is literally in the title of this thread,\*\* and you know it, so your attempts to deflect it back into “black people are violent” stuff is obviously disingenuous nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/75 "2019-08-12T13:48:29Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > ISTM that if this same thread had been written 10 years ago, but replaced “white supremacists” with “muslims”, then the posters who are nit-picking and arguing would have been 1000% “F\*ck yeah!” > > The argument that young muslims were radicalized by online echo chambers would have been accepted without dispute, and all arab mulims would have been suspect and tarred with the same bruch. Yet now, we observe the identical process occurring, but with white people, and OMG! > > Shoe, meet other foot. White people not the same as white supremacists Muslims not the same as radical islamicists (or whatever you want to call them). Please. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/76 "2019-08-12T14:11:50Z")
Democracy is by far the most dangerous ideology. The number of people jailed by democratic governments in the US far exceeds the white supremacists damage. Also the number of killings by democratic agents (the coppers) exceeds the number of killings by these open white supremacists. Your OP deftly evades the damage done by the federal democratic government overseas. Is this due to a nationalistic impulse? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/77 "2019-08-12T14:15:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That has nothing to do with what I said, so for you to say that I’ve linked unrelated things would be to say that you have linked two unrelated things, and then claimed that I said them. > > If North Korea lashes out, that is a reaction to us trying to impose our will on them. > Do you think that WWII didn’t have anything to do with White Supremacism? :smack: Do you think anyone , anywhere is responsible for their own actions and not directly the fault of the US government (or in this case the white supremacists ) ? I find this a lot in all talks about just about everything. Liberals tend to blame (or excuse ) everyone else but the person for whom the blame should lie with. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/78 "2019-08-12T14:16:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Parkland high school shooting - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneman_Douglas_High_School_shooting#Suspect) > > “Police said that he held “extremist” views; social media accounts that were thought to be linked to him contained anti-black and anti-Muslim slurs.” > > “Items recovered by police at the scene included gun magazines with swastikas carved in them. One student reported that Cruz had drawn a swastika and the words “I hate niggers” on his backpack.” > > “CNN reported that Cruz was in a private Instagram group chat where he expressed racist, homophobic, antisemitic, and anti-immigrant (xenophobic) views. He said he wanted to kill gay people and Mexicans, and talked about keeping black people in chains. He said he hated black people “simply because they were black,” and Jewish people because he believed “they wanted to destroy the world.” He also referred to white women who engaged in interracial relationships as traitors.” Calling someone who believes that a small number of Jews can control all “white” nations a white SUPREMACIST is a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/79 "2019-08-12T14:29:11Z")
In addition to democracy doing much more damage than any other ideology, it is also wholeheartedly endorsed by a huge majority of the public and is preached as gospel in schools. It has control over the most powerful military apparatus in human history. It is in control of a government which confiscates more wealth than any organization in human history. There really is no equal to democracy as a dangerous ideology besides perhaps communism or real-deal socialism, both of which are relatively non-influential today. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449/80 "2019-08-12T14:33:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Democracy is by far the most dangerous ideology. The number of people jailed by democratic governments in the US far exceeds the white supremacists damage. Also the number of killings by democratic agents (the coppers) exceeds the number of killings by these open white supremacists. > > Your OP deftly evades the damage done by the federal democratic government overseas. Is this due to a nationalistic impulse? Your response deftly avoids the OP by introducing criminal/penal laws and ongoing wars that have nothing to do with what’s being discussed. Let’s stay on topic, shall we? Any chance that a large proportion of those killed by police were killed during the commission of an actual crime? Or have you accounted for that in your well cited argument? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/white-supremacists-are-the-biggest-ideological-threat-to-american-lives-by-far/838449.md?page=5)