# 'Whiteness' Chart at the Smithsoniam Museum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636 "2020-07-18T02:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/82 "2020-07-20T20:21:23Z")
exactly. But is that whiteness chart universal? Or was it supposed to be, Germans, Russians, Brits, Americans, white people everywhere, they all value those same things on that whiteness chart? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/83 "2020-07-20T20:26:21Z")
It means the concept of whiteness as understood in America at this particular time. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/84 "2020-07-21T02:24:42Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Wrong. The black/white dichotomy initially was a criterion determining who could be enslaved and who could not, after the initial criterion of religious affiliation had failed because people can change religions. Only after the black/white dichotomy was established did whiteness start accumulating a mythology of its own worthiness. Indeed – the original justification for the subjugation of the Native and Black peoples was the millenia-old one of being “heathen”. Thing is, you can stop being a heathen. Now what? It did not take long for there to emerge the concept of classification by “races” with essentialized attributes not just of physique but of temperament, and the view that the “otherness” was innate. And then that resulted in constructing a whole set of characterizations of the other races as _lacking the virtues of the dominant group_. Lazy, violent, sexually voracious, superstitious, pysically instead of intellectually oriented, chaotic. And meanwhile the predominant group stopped being seen as just “Christians” or (depending on where you were) “Englishmen”, “Castillians”, “Frenchmen”, and became seen as “White”. That whiteness is constructed incorporates an additional feature in the case of the USA: those newcomers who could most efficiently assimilate into indistinguishability, come around to be seen as part of the “norm” pretty quickly. So of course this gives an advantage to Caucasian European Christians and Jews. **But** it locks out those for whom it is impossible to “melt” into the dominant group – for them, however punctual, rational, modest, reserved, family-centered, entrepeneurial, even the best effort at assimilating the values gets, at most, the damning-with-faint-praise label of “a credit to your race” or “a model minority”. But you are still “other”. (This is also how come you get the situation where a person who lives as “white” in Santo Domingo finds out he’s not “white” in Omaha. Because the construction of sociocultural whiteness did not take the same path everywhere.) > [@Kearsen1](#): > > There is nothing inherently wrong with any culture if they don’t value a something (punctuality), but they should not be surprised if the things that people here value that thing, correlates to success. > … > Are there more lead in questions that ultimately may get to, Maybe you guys shouldn’t hold punctuality so high, so it lets other cultures who may not value you it as high do better? And here you are just ticking off another box in the chart - you are presuming a certain definition of “success”, as axiomatically to be desired. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/85 "2020-07-21T13:22:43Z")
I guess I simply do not understand. Yes, I assumed success, however defined, was desirable. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/86 "2020-07-21T13:23:27Z")
Which is also how I understood it, which leads me back to the definition of success, here, not in India. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/87 "2020-07-21T15:07:04Z")
If one goes into international business it is good to know the customs and narms of the people of different countries you will be dealing with. Why not another chart or poster talking about values of say Japanese, Chinese, or others? Why just talking about “white” people? I would also like to see an equal chart for values of black people. If we dont have these, what do we learn? ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/88 "2020-07-21T15:09:44Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > They show up on a success chart in the US, because the culture as a whole values punctuality. A business person in many places who valued punctuality more than flexibility would be less successful than others. He’d offend clients when he ended meetings before they were satisfied because he had another appointment. He’d lose good employees who didn’t understand why he cared so much. He’d waste tons of time spinning his wheels, waiting on people. But what about in the school setting where say a class starts at 9:10 am and the teacher needs to have the students in their seats and ready by 9:05 am? A teacher cant be successful if they must wait 10-15 minutes while students stager in and wont get down to business. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/89 "2020-07-21T17:07:38Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I guess I simply do not understand. Yes, I assumed success, however defined, was desirable. The only point here is that the definition for success is arbitrary and culturally specific. There is nothing inherently correct (or inherently wrong) about how we tend to do things in America. And, how we do things draws most of its inspiration from European, white cultural traditions and priorities. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/90 "2020-07-21T17:08:48Z")
But of course that is correct, now what? I guess my over-riding questions is what conversation are we supposed to derive from a chart that shows that America was founded on principles that primarily white people of Europe found correlated to success? If, we are meant to look inside and discuss whether America (since it is not all White) needs to change it’s valuation of things like speaking English, or being punctual. Whew, that is a biggie. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/91 "2020-07-21T17:32:35Z")
OK, folks. Maybe an emphasis on scheduling things down to the minute is a cultural trait, rather than something that’s inherently “good”. (And probably not even that old of a cultural trait; I don’t think white people were that punctual either before the railroads came along.) Maybe having a somewhat more “laid back” approach to punctuality and timekeeping isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It has its upsides as well as its downsides. But what about “objective, rational linear thinking”? “Cause and effect relationships”??? How in the hell are “cause and effect relationships” part of the “traditions, attitudes and ways of life” that “white people” have “normalized over time” and that everyone else has just sort of “internalized”? Again, if some alt-right person (perhaps even someone in the White House) were saying this shit, we’d all–quite properly–be screaming about “Racism! White supremacy!” As it is, while those posters are a fascinating example of the “horseshoe theory” as applied to the Identitarian Right and the Identity-Politics Left, I suspect that what’s really going on is not that the people at the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of African American History and Culture are secretly a bunch of white supremacists who believe that black people are primitive savages incapable of grasping cause and effect relationships. Rather, I suspect this is the latest example of trendy Postmodernism on the sillier fringes of the Left. (The obsession with cause-and-effect relationships reflects the Western hegemonic desire to colonize reality itself, imposing the paradigm of the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions on the very minds of Indigenous People of Color, thus completing the Western capitalistic conquest and transformation that began with the enslavement of their bodies and the expropriation of their labor). But it’s still bullshit, and at least unintentionally racist. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/92 "2020-07-21T17:44:45Z")
Objective, rational thinking is associated with whiteness. So, a white person is more likely to be seen as making a rational “objective” argument. People of color are more likely to be described as “screaming about” something, or described as being emotionally driven, even when they are making a perfectly rational argument. White people often claim that their way is just the sensible way, and other ways don’t make sense, even when that is not true. See above re being seen as rational. In addition, there are times when relationships and emotions need to take precedence. In those situations, it can be detrimental to be overly oriented toward a strictly rational approach. This is not rocket science. ETA: This in no way means only white people value rational thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/93 "2020-07-21T17:50:40Z")
However, normalizing this normalization is pernicious as well. The majority of people are dumbasses. “You’re just saying my argument is illogical because I’m not a white man” shouldn’t be an instant argument ender. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/94 "2020-07-21T18:10:15Z")
Nothing should be an instant argument ender. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/95 "2020-07-21T18:24:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think we can all agree that, contrary to what the chart says, the last few months have proven that white Americans don’t really care that much about the Scientific Method. Thank you! New to the thread, but I was beginning to wonder if ANYBODY noticed that glaring issue… ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/96 "2020-07-21T18:29:27Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > ETA: This in no way means only white people value rational thinking. Right! Some “people of color” have managed to “internalize whiteness” to the point where they, too, are capable of “objective, rational linear thinking” and grasping “cause and effect relationships”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/97 "2020-07-21T18:38:50Z")
There’s a reason why that poster is not labeled “characteristics of white people” or “traits of white people” and instead is called “aspects of white culture” ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/98 "2020-07-21T18:46:31Z")
I imagine if you went back further, they would be aspects of the Mongolian culture, or aspects of the Roman culture. Aren’t things a part of a culture designed and filtered because they were successful traits? I can see evolution moving us way from certain things, like strict schedules due to innovation but logical rational thought wasn’t invented by the European white man. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/99 "2020-07-21T18:49:13Z")
The above is an excellent example of “cause and effect” and “rationalization” and how it maybe doesn’t always lead to the universally agreed upon as correct/best conclusion. In other words, Just because you see something happen and you feel compelled to infer a connection between it and something else which you then label as its “cause” does not mean you are correct. Sometimes, “cause and effect” thinking can be harmful, particularly when it leads one to insist there MUST be a cause (usually involving some human actor) and so we MUST respond accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/100 "2020-07-21T18:52:17Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I imagine if you went back further, they would be aspects of the Mongolian culture, or aspects of the Roman culture. > > Aren’t things a part of a culture designed and filtered because they were successful traits? I can see evolution moving us way from certain things, like strict schedules due to innovation but logical rational thought wasn’t invented by the European white man. To be a little bit more precise, the conceit that these are the correct values or the values that lead to success was perpetuated because it created advantages for a powerful class of people. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/101 "2020-07-21T18:57:34Z")
These aspects can be used, for example, like this— “X group is better than Y group because X values Z characteristic and Y fails to live up to Z.” Example “Women are too emotional and irrational to be trusted with the reins of power.” And then selective memory operates to note all the times that a woman behaves “emotionally,” justifying discrimination against women. Never mind that men are also emotional Never mind that it’s not necessarily true that being emotional interferes with the ability to exercise power Never mind that both men and women are capable of putting their emotions in perspective [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636.md?page=6)