# 'Whiteness' Chart at the Smithsoniam Museum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636 "2020-07-18T02:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/122 "2020-07-22T12:32:23Z")
You are getting hung up on a single thing that OUR society has deemed an important component of making money (because our society made the rules). The rules in Dubai and likely all over the world are different. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/123 "2020-07-22T14:33:16Z")
Which raises the question, if the curation of this poster failed in providing the adequate contextualization for it. In that sense, the previous comment of “what if it had the imprint of a white supremacist” is oddly on point, in that it would be then understood as “yes, this is what they are claiming to be exclusively white values,” instead of the apparent misinterpretation of some that it is somehow a denunciation of said people and values. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/124 "2020-07-22T14:55:17Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > You are getting hung up on a single thing that OUR society has deemed an important component of making money (because our society made the rules). The rules in Dubai and likely all over the world are different. … That’s the point. These ideas are normative in our society because we decided it, not because they are inherently better. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/125 "2020-07-22T15:44:50Z")
But you are missing the other point, what purpose does it serve to talk about whiteness as a universal thing? We started out talking about here in the states, yet arguments are brought in that talk about India and Dubai… ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/126 "2020-07-22T15:55:05Z")
Darn it, I would really have been interested to see the Smithsonian’s “Blackness” chart. I guess that isn’t happening now… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/127 "2020-07-22T16:03:13Z")
Since I never saw it in context, I don’t know if the curation failed, or if someone grabbed it out of context to stir controversy on purpose, ignoring or dismissing the context. I have been to the Smithsonian’s African American History museum, and it is one of the best curated museums I have ever been in (my youngest, who is studying American History and museum curation in college concurs, its a remarkable, and remarkably well done museum. And both of us have been to museums and historic sites all over the world). So my guess is that the museum gave it proper context, but it was dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/128 "2020-07-22T16:11:05Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > But you are missing the other point, what purpose does it serve to talk about whiteness as a universal thing? > We started out talking about here in the states, yet arguments are brought in that talk about India and Dubai… I’m pretty sure you worked that out in your discussion with @MandaJo in Post 80 and 83 (I believe). As to why India and Dubai matter - it is helpful to understand that our societal decisions on this are subjective decisions that are not universally applicable. Not mention we do have immigrants from some of these societies and therefore their different ways of viewing things does not make them inherently worse. And being flexible on certain assumed universally applicable ideas may yield better results (maybe loosening up on the punctuality thing we’ve been discussing may end up getting you some hard working immigrants who would have been discounted otherwise - on that, I will note that there has been from my POV a bit of a loosening up on that, more flex schedules for one). ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/129 "2020-07-22T16:30:26Z")
This gets to the heart of my argument. HERE, in the states, it doesn’t matter one whit what India or Dubai do, if anyone coming from anywhere wants to be successful HERE then they will assimilate to the things that make you successful here (because THIS society) has determined the things that correlate with success. No they are not inherently worse, they are different but over here they play by the rules that are here (or work to change them) but deciding that it isn’t fair because you don’t know or because you don’t wanna assimilate isn’t going to get very far. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/130 "2020-07-22T16:42:40Z")
Like I mentioned earlier: there are many for whom _no matter how damn much they assimilate values-wise,_ they are forever marked in their skin, in their eyes, in what god they pray to, in how their names are spelled, to be treated as the “other”. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/131 "2020-07-22T16:57:38Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > if anyone coming from anywhere wants to be successful HERE then they will assimilate to the things that make you successful here Or our society (and economy) can be flexible and nimble leading to even greater success. As I have already pointed out flex schedules are far more in vogue these days, as business have realized the strict overly-punctual 9-5 was not efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/132 "2020-07-22T17:10:25Z")
Yes they could, not they MUST ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/133 "2020-07-22T22:12:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > here are many more cites. Google helps find them. If you are interested. Great, thanks! I’m glad they gathered more information and changed what they were displaying on their website. Good for them! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/134 "2020-07-22T22:27:54Z")
Once you realize that you’re unfairly judging people based on arbitrary values, that you are giving yourself the benefit of the doubt on those values without evidence, and that you are either stereotyping other groups as failing to conform to those values or unfairly penalizing people from minority cultures for not living up to those values, then you should think twice about the way you wield those values to disadvantage some people. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/135 "2020-07-23T12:00:47Z")
Oh good grief! If you move into a different society, the onus is on you to conform, or get run out. No one is wielding the conformance standards as a baton to beat you down if you don’t conform, here at least, but you will be disadvantaged in some form or fashion if you cannot or will not conform. There is nothing remotely “unfair” about having the same rules apply to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/136 "2020-07-23T16:22:05Z")
Strict 9-5 punctuality is not somehow objectively “better” (more efficient, more likely to yield economic advantages for everyone, whatever); companies are adopting flex schedules and the like for valid reasons., What you seem to be saying, @Kearsen1, is that because our current American society does place great emphasis on that particular value, then everyone absolutely must conform to it to succeed, and our society cannot under any circumstances bend to accommodate to other values even if so bending yields advantages in some circumstances. That makes adherence to the value more important than, for example, [worker productivity](https://www.forbes.com/sites/adigaskell/2016/01/15/why-a-flexible-worker-is-a-happy-and-productive-worker). What’s the point of that, except to use adherence as a baton? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/137 "2020-07-23T18:31:49Z")
That isn’t what was said , at all. It amazes me the mental gymnastics one must use to communicate effectively here. No one said 9-5 was better. No one even said punctuality is better. What was said is that there are objective measures that correlate to success. Want to be successful, you have a better chance by following said correlations. If things prove out to be advantageous in our society, things adjust. Like you said, flex schedules are becoming all the rage (they actually have been for years) ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/138 "2020-07-23T19:40:08Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > No one even said punctuality is better. > > What was said is that there are objective measures that correlate to success. What you said was that punctuality is one of the objective measures that correlate to success, and that if anyone coming from anywhere wants to be successful HERE then they will assimilate to the things that make you successful here. If that isn’t calling punctuality “better” in this society, then what is it? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/139 "2020-07-23T22:24:38Z")
I believe it’s just human nature, but why do people have to be categorized, labeled, and put into perceived like boxes? It is one of the biggest flaws as human beings we have. Race, gender, sexual orientation, income, age, religion, political beliefs, residence, ethnicity, sports team fan affiliation, on and on. We have trouble accepting the uniqueness of individuals and have overwhelming need to classify and sort people into predefined boxes that fit our perception of the world we live in. Everyone does it to all of those around us. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/140 "2020-07-24T13:48:31Z")
You are focusing on the tree, so you aren’t seeing the forest. Society, this one, has determined that success correlates to certain traits that garner more success (Again, not ALWAYS). Punctuality IS one but it doesn’t NEED to be one and could change if society deems it so. So this issue has very very little to do with punctuality (at the core) So you can stop harping on punctuality as you try to prove or refute a point. Instead focus on what the ideas being exchanged here are about, look at the forest. And yes, if you want to be successful HERE, do the things that THIS society has deemed correlate with success, HERE. I thought that line of thinking was a no brainer. It is, except for the people who want things changed. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636/141 "2020-07-24T14:19:28Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Punctuality IS one but it doesn’t NEED to be one and could change if society deems it so. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > And yes, if you want to be successful HERE, do the things that THIS society has deemed correlate with success, HERE. I thought that line of thinking was a no brainer. > > It is, except for the people who want things changed. So how do you get society to deem it ok to change the traits considered important, except by showing it is possible to be successful doing it a different way? However, it is a “no brainer” that you have to do the things we already deem important in order to be successful. Somebody is missing something here, but I don’t think it’s me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-chart-at-the-smithsoniam-museum/915636.md?page=8)