# "Whiteness Studies" - Useful academic endeavor or self indulgent liberal polemic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173 "2003-06-20T15:00:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/21 "2003-06-22T17:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Belowjob2.0 \* > \*\*Claiming that Leonard Jeffries represents all black studies, or that his views are commonly held in black studies programs, is akin to claiming that Phillippe Rushton represents all evolutionary biologists, or that Michael Levin represents all philosophy professors. \*\* Good thing I didn’t claim that, then. **monstro** claimed that "everything you spout on this board is made up. " (addressing **december** ). So I posted a couple of examples of things taught in black studies courses, or by black studies professors, which are obvious nonsense. Thus demonstrating that some things taught in black studies are worthless. Although you are correct that my opinion of many ethnic studies courses is low. In my opinion, they often lack rigor. Witness the problems with teaching I, Rigoberto Menchu, which was used in many Third World studies courses, and turned out to be [less than truthful.](http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_lasupporters53101.html) Or the famous [Sokal article](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1848/fuller.htm) and the embarassment felt by cultural studies majors all over the country at being unable to tell a spoof from a work of serious scholarship. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by you with the face \* > \*\*Well, before criticizing a whole discipline (oops, make that two disciplines), it would help your case if you actually have first-hand experience with some black studies curriculum. \*\* Ah yes, the old “How do you know unless you’ve tried it” defense. I’m pretty sure the Nation of Islam’s ideas of the genesis of black folks, with Mr. Yacub and the mother ship and so forth, is literally untrue. Same with the idea that flying saucers are abducting and doing anal probes on people who read the National Enquirer. And I neither read the National Enquirer nor belong to the Nation of Islam. In the same way, I can be reasonably sure that Jeffries’ ideas on melanin, or that black people in America have some genetic predisposition to speak Ebonics , are wrong. Even though I didn’t major in Oppression Studies in college. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by monstro_ - > **I’m not using my anecdotal experience to generalize about black studies…** Actually, that is pretty much exactly what you are doing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/22 "2003-06-22T20:25:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > One of the more common ideas is that Greeks stole all or most of their philosophy from African thinkers. Mary Lefkowitz of Wellesley College published a whole book Not Out of Africa debunking the claims of a Black Studies professor at her own college who claimed that, among other things, Aristotle had gotten his ideas by stealing them from the library at Alexandria. Lefkowitz pointed out that this would be difficult, since the library was not built until after Aristotle’s death. > [Cite.](http://www.cs.uleth.ca/~kaminski/socrates.txt) Thanks, **Shodan**. My wife went to Wellesley, knew Prof Lerkowitz, and had a lot of respect for her. The Black Studies scholar you referred to is unfortunately an embarassment to the school. **you with the face** , I never took a woman’s studies course, but I did spend a quarter of a million dollars so my daughters could take some fo them. I paid attention to the impact on my daughters. ---
**Author:** ![Lear\_s\_fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/df788c/32.png) [@Lear\_s\_fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lear_s_fool)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/23 "2003-06-22T20:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > you with the face, I never took a woman’s studies course, but I did spend a quarter of a million dollars so my daughters could take some fo them. I paid attention to the impact on my daughters. Heaven forbid they question their parents’ values ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/24 "2003-06-22T20:54:17Z")
**Shodon** , do you mind showing me exactly how I have generalized about anything–except for **december’s** infamous posting style–on this thread? Go back and read my posts and you will see that I have not. > [@](#): > > Thus demonstrating that some things taught in black studies are worthless. There’s a guy going around by the name of Michael Behe who’s using his background in cell biology to teach the worthless concept of intelligent design theory. So if I say cell biology is “mostly stuff made up”, you’d defend me as ardently as you’re defending **december**? In ecology, there are some ecologists who are teaching neutrality theory as a valid criticism of niche theory, even though the evidence is circumstantial. While I don’t think the theory is very rigorous, I wouldn’t call it “worthless”. But I’m sure many other ecologists would feel that way. Should we conclude from this controversy that ecology is “mostly stuff made up”? If a person who never set foot in an ecology class made this statement, would you defend them as ardently as you’ve defended **december**? My point has always been that it’s easy to point to the “worthless, made up stuff” because that’s the stuff you read about in the newspaper. Chances are a person who has no interest in black studies (or any other field) is NOT going to encounter information that is typical or “academically rigorous”. Not on the six o’clock news anyway. The reason is because it’s BORING. I generally don’t listen to people who are obtaining their information only from the six o’clock news. Sorry. If you don’t get my point now, then I don’t know what else I can say. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/25 "2003-06-22T21:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > \*\* However, if “blackness” and “whiteness” had never been invented in the first place, maybe we wouldn’t have all these problems today. > > In short, blackness was only invented to justify racism, so of course it should be abolished. \*\* I’m pretty sure racism has a much broader existence than just that. I have no idea how far back Japan’s history of racism goes but i am quite sure it isn’t tied into slavery. India was living under a racial caste system 2500 years ago. I think its just human narcissism to assume whatever group (religion, race, nationality) you belong to is superior. it applies across the board, not just in western culture. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/26 "2003-06-22T22:57:53Z")
by **december** : > [@](#): > > you with the face, I never took a woman’s studies course, but I did spend a quarter of a million dollars so my daughters could take some fo them. I paid attention to the impact on my daughters. So I’m assuming since you have such a negative view toward women’s studies, your daughters are off somewhere with shaved heads and hairy armpits, not wearing bras because they’ve been brainwashed to believe that bras represent the tool of The Man in his demonical plan to distort natural femininity and keep womyn shackled to the bottom rungs of society’s ladder. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/27 "2003-06-22T23:47:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure racism has a much broader existence than just that. I have no idea how far back Japan’s history of racism goes but i am quite sure it isn’t tied into slavery. India was living under a racial caste system 2500 years ago. Okay. I didn’t say racism was invented with blackness, I said blackness was invented to justify racism. > [@](#): > > I think its just human narcissism to assume whatever group (religion, race, nationality) you belong to is superior. it applies across the board, not just in western culture. I think it’s individual narcissism to assume your culture’s prejudices (which may be shared with a few others) occur universally. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/28 "2003-06-23T03:03:24Z")
**Shodan** , I think what you’re talking about is _afrocentrism_. There’s a difference between that and Rigoberta Menchu, who did make up a great deal, but DID bring attention to the situation in Guatemala. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/29 "2003-06-23T05:09:01Z")
december, it is hard to have a reasonable debate when you often sidetrack the issues with these generalizations based on anecdotal information and op ed pieces. Do you know of any reputable research on the effectiveness of minority and women’s studies? Back to the OP: I would have to know more about the purpose of whiteness studies before I could form an opinion of their value. I like to hear from all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/30 "2003-06-23T05:23:25Z")
The problem with “whiteness studies”, of course, is that few white people see themselves as white. And not because of denial of a “privileged status”. “White people” (a truly artificial designation) include all sorts of folks who identify themselves on the basis of ethnic/religious orientation, not by perceptions of skin color. There is arguably no “white” unified way of looking at things. The people who are pushing “white studies” and similar silliness think that further obsession with race will help cure racism. This is highly doubtful. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/31 "2003-06-23T05:43:10Z")
While the whole notion is rather absurd, one point from the article stood out to me as particularly ridiculous: > [@](#): > > Advocates of whiteness studies — most of whom are white liberals who hope to dismantle notions of race — believe that white Americans are so accustomed to being part of a privileged majority they do not see themselves as part of a race. To steal and modify an old liberal line, “Creating racial constructs to dismantle notions of race is like fucking for virginity.” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/32 "2003-06-23T06:07:50Z")
So what is the answer? Ignore it an it’ll go away? I believe that studying and thinking about something will always get better results then trying to pretend it doesn’t exist. But it is _awfully_ easy to pretend that something doesn’t exist when it doesn’t affect you negatively. How many Black people out there will say that race doesn’t matter anymore? How many Latinos? **Jackmannii** is the perfect example of someone who thinks that because he’s never thought about whiteness, it must not exist. Few people see themselves as "white’ precisely because their culture is so dominant that they never have to. It wasn’t until I got to college that I realized my experiences in life actually would be different if I were another race, or if I were disabled or transgendered or something. It never dawned on me that my experience wasn’t the universal experience, and that I took advantage of certain privledges (and dealt with certain things that hold me back) that other people may not have access too. Here is an experiment **Jackmannii** , that will work if you are a guy. Find a woman you think you know well. Ask her what her experiences are doing stuff like walking home at night, walking on a busy street, trying to buy a car and having a one-on-one meeting with a male collegue. While all women are different, I think you’ll be surprised at the answers. Different people in different circumstances have vastly different experiences. You have different experiences than someone that is a different race than you. That is a fact. If you don’t like it, I don’t know what to say, except that claiming otherwise won’t change the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/33 "2003-06-23T14:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Few people see themselves as "white’ precisely because their culture is so dominant that they never have to. > \*\* Dominant yes, but more quantitatively so than w/r/t power. f’rinstance, if I were to travel to Africa and spend time in a nearly totally “Black” area where persons of several different African ethnicities lived, I would probably soon begin to see people as their sub-ethnicity and not as “black”. Whereas the few european travellers I met I would probably see as “white” rather than “english” or “german”. Same thing w/r/t “black” in America, with the additional problem that many were forcibly removed from their cultural origins and thus can identify with “blackness” more readily than a given ethnicity. So in that way the “dominant” culture did construct racial types, but that was a long time ago. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Find a woman you think you know well. Ask her what her experiences are doing stuff like walking home at night, walking on a busy street, trying to buy a car and having a one-on-one meeting with a male collegue. While all women are different, I think you’ll be surprised at the answers.\*\* boo friggin hoo. Besides the first one, which is valid, I don’t see any gender-specific situations there. Granted, I may not be wolf-whistled at or bluffed or sexually harassed more an average woman would be, but that doesn’t mean it doesnt happen often enough for it to be in the back of my mind in certain situations. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/34 "2003-06-23T15:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > **Jackmannii is the perfect example of someone who thinks that because he’s never thought about whiteness, it must not exist. Few people see themselves as "white’ precisely because their culture is so dominant that they never have to.** Before leaping into a diatribe, it might be well for you to actually read and digest my remarks, which had nothing in them to deny that people might face discrimination based on skin color or other factors. The simple fact is that “white culture” is an artificial construct, and “white people” are far, far more likely to see themselves as and have activities and outlook in common with Italian-Americans, Catholics, Jews, etc. than as members of a “white race”. If one wants to make sure that students are aware of past and present racism, it can be presented as part of courses in history, political science etc. rather than a ludicrous attempt to establish a “white studies” curriculum, which will basically appeal to a bizarre subset of guilt-sodden self-flagellants, loonies, and white racists.\* \*No doubt there are a few hundred people in the backwoods of Idaho and Montana, for example, who’d tell you it’s high time for everyone to focus on the accomplishments of the glorious white race. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/35 "2003-06-23T15:46:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > **Do you know of any reputable research on the effectiveness of minority and women’s studies?** There are many articles and books that disparage black studies and women’s studies. They might or might not meet your defininition of “reputable research.” We have debated womens studies in another thread on this Board. I think we may have debated black studies as well. So, I don’t want to continue the hijack that I started. If you wish to go farther, why not start a new thread? > [@](#): > > **even sven** > So what is the answer? Ignore it an it’ll go away? I believe that studying and thinking about something will always get better results then trying to pretend it doesn’t exist. Let’s do an empirical comparison with prejudice against other minority groups in this country. Back several decades there was a lot of prejudice against Italians, Irish, Jews, Filipinos, Chinese, Japanese, among others. Most, but not all, of that prejudice is gone. The prejudice wasn’t ignored, but it wasn’t overcome by means of flaky pseudo-academic indoctrination. It was overcome by the individual efforts of millions of people who achieved success, thereby demonstrating the falsity of the negative stererotypes. Self-help organizations contributed to their members’ success. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/36 "2003-06-23T16:29:22Z")
december: > [@](#): > > Let’s do an empirical comparison with prejudice against other minority groups in this country. Why? Blacks don’t compare with other “minorities”. Blacks were imported as slaves, and then released after a couple of centuries only to occupy the same land as their previous enslavers. It’s a very distinct history, completely different from those of immigrants go came here on their own volition to become American. “Minority” is a clumsy word; it implies that one can lump all non-whites together as if they share the same “minority” experience. > [@](#): > > Back several decades there was a lot of prejudice against Italians, Irish, Jews, Filipinos, Chinese, Japanese, among others. Most, but not all, of that prejudice is gone. The prejudice wasn’t ignored, but it wasn’t overcome by means of flaky pseudo-academic indoctrination. It was overcome by the individual efforts of millions of people who achieved success, thereby demonstrating the falsity of the negative stererotypes. Self-help organizations contributed to their members’ success. Blacks had all that too. They had self-help organizations and were among the nation’s first millionares. What they didn’t have was a neighboring class of undesirables with which to compare themselves in order to show their superiority; a “visible bottom rung” race to represent the negative side of the American race dichotomy (as a dichotomy must exist in every aspect of American life). The immigrants, on the other hand, were all lucky enough to have that… ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/37 "2003-06-23T16:48:41Z")
december: > [@](#): > > Let’s do an empirical comparison with prejudice against other minority groups in this country. Why? Blacks don’t compare with other “minorities”. Blacks were imported as slaves, and then released after a couple of centuries only to occupy the same land as their previous enslavers. It’s a very distinct history, completely different from those of immigrants go came here on their own volition to become American. “Minority” is a clumsy word; it implies that one can lump all non-whites together as if they share the same “minority” experience. > [@](#): > > Back several decades there was a lot of prejudice against Italians, Irish, Jews, Filipinos, Chinese, Japanese, among others. Most, but not all, of that prejudice is gone. The prejudice wasn’t ignored, but it wasn’t overcome by means of flaky pseudo-academic indoctrination. It was overcome by the individual efforts of millions of people who achieved success, thereby demonstrating the falsity of the negative stererotypes. Self-help organizations contributed to their members’ success. Blacks had all that too. They had self-help organizations and were among the nation’s first millionares. What they didn’t have was a neighboring class of undesirables with which to compare themselves in order to show their superiority; a “visible bottom rung” race to represent the negative side of the American race dichotomy (as a dichotomy must exist in every aspect of American life). The immigrants, on the other hand, were all lucky enough to have that… ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/38 "2003-06-23T17:14:28Z")
by **Jackmannii** : > [@](#): > > The simple fact is that “white culture” is an artificial construct, and “white people” are far, far more likely to see themselves as and have activities and outlook in common with Italian-Americans, Catholics, Jews, etc. than as members of a “white race”. That’s news to me. Most white people down in the southern US do not go around calling themselves Irish-Americans or any other hyphenated ethnicities. When they make friends, they tend to make friends with other white people, not only whites that belong to their own ethnicity. Who they choose to mate with is not split along ethnic lines. When they discriminate, it tends to be against non-whites, not against all people (white or not) who are members of other ethnic groups. St. Patrick’s day, which is celebrated by lots of people, is not seen as a holiday only for the Irish blooded. Like Kwanza is perceived to be only for AA’s. And when asked “what” they are, most white people in my neck of the woods will say American and no one will act as if their answer is incomplete. Most white people I interact with don’t identify strongly with any particular culture, except maybe the rather generic potpourri that is American culture. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/39 "2003-06-23T17:22:12Z")
by **december** : > [@](#): > > Let’s do an empirical comparison with prejudice against other minority groups in this country. Doing an empirical comparison of blacks with other minority groups is like doing an empirical comparison of an ostrich and a bat. Just because they both wings, doesn’t mean both should be able to fly. But of course, you’ve been told this so many times in so many different ways already. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173/40 "2003-06-23T17:50:00Z")
**pizzabrat** and **you with the face** , I fully agree that blacks suffered worse discrimination than other minority groups in several key respects. IMHO that’s all the more reason to select remedies that will be effective. We do no favor to black people if we decide to experiment haphazardly, rather than focus on approaches that have worked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whiteness-studies-useful-academic-endeavor-or-self-indulgent-liberal-polemic/183173.md?page=3)