# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/281 "2014-09-05T19:52:47Z")
Pjen, has anyone other than yourself suggested it would be illegal to revoke British citizenship after a yes vote? ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/282 "2014-09-05T20:21:34Z")
Scotland will issue ID cards?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![phaemon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@phaemon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phaemon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/283 "2014-09-06T00:30:22Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > I said the an independent Scotland would have a weak economy. Yes, based on nothing more than your own ignorance. I was kind of hoping for something with slightly more substance. > [@](#): > > What credibility should anyone give to research commissioned by the Scottish Parliament? The same credibility you’d give to any research conducted by an independent group. Oh wait, you don’t know the difference between who commissions research and who conducts it, so that won’t make sense to you. Maybe you could look it up. I do notice you fail to point out any flaws in their methodology or conclusions, preferring snide insinuation instead. > [@](#): > > Standards and Poor indeed! Hope that is not the standard of research by which Scotland would run its affairs. That’s “Standard and Poor’s”. If you don’t know why their opinion is important, then you should go educate yourself. Hint: it’s not because they’re such likeable chaps. > [@](#): > > No amount of professors waving their degrees at each other… Why does this conversation remind me so much of talking to Global Warming deniers. The same dismissal of anything academic. The same blustering ignorance masquerading as common sense. The gish gallops without an ounce of substance, just mindlessly repeating trite dismissals of any actual reasoned argument. Hell, you even have your very own Al Gore in the form of Alex Salmond. If all else fails, make it about him! And just like conversations with the global warming deniers, I get bored of it pretty quickly. I don’t think I’ll be contributing much more to this thread. Have a good weekend. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/284 "2014-09-06T01:07:34Z")
Standard and Poor AAA credit ratings are famously the best that money you can buy. They have a lamentable record of producing forecasts based on the expectations of their principle client. They will be forever tainted by their role in the sub prime scandal when they slapped AAA valuations on all manner of dodgy mortgage packages. Their forecasts are about as reliable as buying a used car from Alex Salmond with a his own personal guarantee of reliability and economy. Far worse than an global warming denier, I am a Scottish independence skeptic. So, I think we can agree we have religious differences. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/285 "2014-09-06T06:02:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Pjen, has anyone other than yourself suggested it would be illegal to revoke British citizenship after a yes vote? The evidence is there that no European country can remove citizenship from people without a fair process and reasonable cause. I have given the evidence for that. Each country is bound by its treaty obligations to not strip people of their citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/286 "2014-09-06T06:29:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The evidence is there that no European country can remove citizenship from people without a fair process and reasonable cause. I have given the evidence for that. Each country is bound by its treaty obligations to not strip people of their citizenship. So no, then? Not a single legal expert or commentator has brought this point up? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/287 "2014-09-06T07:51:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So no, then? Not a single legal expert or commentator has brought this point up? Except for the reasoning by the judges in the Rottman case and the wording of the European Convention on Human rights. Will that do for legal expertise. More to the point neither the British Government nor any campaign literature for the NO campaign has suggested this. Perhaps you could produce a legal cite to show what rights the rUK would have to abrogate their treaty obligations. The only support you have is the supposition of people wanting to scare Scots. Weak. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/288 "2014-09-06T08:22:50Z")
The No campaign hasn’t brought it up because it would be stupid politically. But the ideas of future citizenship is certainly on the mind. To think that not single commentator has pointed out “guess what? Scots stay British. It’s the law” other than yourself seems odd. No? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/289 "2014-09-06T09:32:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The evidence is there that no European country can remove citizenship from people without a fair process and reasonable cause. I have given the evidence for that. Each country is bound by its treaty obligations to not strip people of their citizenship. And you don’t think that that the independence referendum constitutes a fair process and reasonable cause? Again, do you want to be Scottish or British? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/290 "2014-09-06T13:23:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And you don’t think that that the independence referendum constitutes a fair process and reasonable cause? > > Again, do you want to be Scottish or British? No, it is not a reasonable cause to lose ones citizenship because many people who wish to remain British (NO voters) should certainly not be denied it by a majority vote of others and even YES voter might want to retain their heritage nationality. I would quite like to have dual nationality if independence comes about. This is nothing more than a neo-colonial attempt to threaten and shame people who may be setting up a separate country. Loss of nationality is not going to happen, has not been proposed by the British Government, would be illegal in most circumstances and is merely a silly exercise in waving a flag about non-existent worries- not even Better Together has sunk that low. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/291 "2014-09-06T13:24:33Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The No campaign hasn’t brought it up because it would be stupid politically. But the ideas of future citizenship is certainly on the mind. To think that not single commentator has pointed out “guess what? Scots stay British. It’s the law” other than yourself seems odd. No? Maybe few other people have bothered to read up on the constitutional position regarding our Treaty obligations. Maybe nobody did because it is a stupid idea believed by nobody in the public arena. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/292 "2014-09-06T17:15:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Maybe few other people have bothered to read up on the constitutional position regarding our Treaty obligations. Maybe nobody did because it is a stupid idea believed by nobody in the public arena. I think it’s most likely that you are just wrong. We both agree that it’s not going to happen but for pragmatic reasons not because of treaty obligations. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/293 "2014-09-06T17:36:01Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Maybe few other people have bothered to read up on the constitutional position regarding our Treaty obligations. Maybe nobody did because it is a stupid idea believed by nobody in the public arena. Our treaty obligations (if, indeed, we are bound by a treaty we’ve not signed due to EU membership, which is a dubious claim) mean we can’t leave anyone stateless or remove citizenship from them if they’ve not chosen to take up another citizenship. Neither of which apply if they choose Scottish citizenship. You’ve still not answered the question of why Scotland, or Scots, want both independence and to remain British, except as a transitional measure. Or even, really, what that would mean. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/294 "2014-09-06T17:39:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think it’s most likely that you are just wrong. We both agree that it’s not going to happen but for pragmatic reasons not because of treaty obligations. Well, it has to eventually happen, else every Scot will also be British forever. It’s most likely to happen that the children of British/Scottish dual nationality citizens won’t be British, and possibly that, in a few decades, those who have neither resided in Britain nor obtained a passport will have to do either one or lose their citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/295 "2014-09-06T19:31:59Z")
The point is that a mass revocation of citizenship extremely unlikely. As you say, it will eventually disappear through attrition. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/296 "2014-09-07T01:22:40Z")
With just 12 days remaining until the Scottish independence referendum, the Yes side has taken the lead. A YouGov poll in tomorrow’s Sunday Times puts them on 51 per cent (+4), two points ahead of No. > **[Scottish Yes campaign two points ahead in new poll](https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/scottish-yes-campaign-two-points-ahead-new-poll)** > > Pro-independence side takes the lead for the first time with less than two weeks to go.  ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/297 "2014-09-07T04:38:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The point is that a mass revocation of citizenship extremely unlikely. As you say, it will eventually disappear through attrition. Which is where I started. Mt original point here or on the other thread was that my sons were born in England at the turn of the century. Their children will be in their dotage as British citizens (if the desire it) in the early part of the twenty second century. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/298 "2014-09-07T04:43:22Z")
I never disagreed with that. You quite clearly and many times sajd it would be illegal for Britain to revoke citizenship from an independent Scottish population. That I disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/299 "2014-09-07T04:50:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think it’s most likely that you are just wrong. We both agree that it’s not going to happen but for pragmatic reasons not because of treaty obligations. What do you not understand about the simple English of the ECHR: Right to a fair trial 1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. There is a civil right to retain ones citizenship. If rUK wishes to removes citizenship, it will have to be by a fair and public hearing. This is why every illegal immigrant and asylum seeker can say “I have a civil right to stay, if you want to disprove that it must be in a “fair and public hearing”” This is why once a person is in the UK they cannot be removed by government fiat, only by a tribunal system. The same route would be available to people disgruntled about unjust removal of their birthright to citizenship. Additionally in the legal argument in the Rottwell case it was accepted as a principle of European Community Law that no individual state could act in such a way as to deny EU citizenship to someone without just casue and procedure. In fact they found that as a specific that Rothwell had lost his citizenship through his own malfeasance, but the principle was accepted. At least for the period that Scotland is not a full member of the EU, it would be illegal for the rUK to act in any way to deny EU citizenship to them. If rUK leaves the EU, they are still bound by the ECHR above. Apart from quoting practice before modern citizenship law and particularly European law on citizenship developed, people have provided no cites for how the above treaty obligations could be abrogated without serious consequences. I thought this forum required cites! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/300 "2014-09-07T04:59:28Z")
People ask for cites, yes. But the cites you’ve provided are so damn tangential to your argument. A country voting to secede is so unlike a criminal trying to escape justice by emigrating that it’s not worth arguing about. Oh yeah, i should read in context. Right back at you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=16)