# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/561 "2014-09-10T12:02:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As it should, but not down by as much as if they weren’t guaranteed an extra 4 seats. I am not some Quebec basher. I think it’s not bad to remember that they are really half of the foundation of Canada. Just pointing out they are indeed getting special consideration here. And yet, you don’t seem bothered by the fact that PEI, Saskatchewan, Newfoundland and Labrador, New Brunswick, Manitoba, and Nova Scotia all are over-represented in the Commons, to a much greater degree than Quebec, based on their populations. Doesn’t that amount to special consideration by your analysis? Or is over-representation in the Commons only a special consideration when you’re looking at Quebec? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/562 "2014-09-10T12:51:51Z")
Is it true, or close, that 40% of British enlistments in the services come from 5% of population Scotland? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/563 "2014-09-10T12:55:06Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And yet, you don’t seem bothered by the fact that PEI, Saskatchewan, Newfoundland and Labrador, New Brunswick, Manitoba, and Nova Scotia all are over-represented in the Commons, to a much greater degree than Quebec, based on their populations. Doesn’t that amount to special consideration by your analysis? Or is over-representation in the Commons only a special consideration when you’re looking at Quebec? It is worth remembering that every small US state is massively over represented in Congress via the 2 senators per state rule. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/564 "2014-09-10T13:01:30Z")
A update on the position today. Whichever way it goes now, Scotland has won. If there is a YES vote it leads to independence, if the very public and desperate tripartite assurances about virtual home rule are ignored (as happened in 1979 with less public assurance) then there will be mayhem in the Scottish Body politic with “English Promises” from Cameron, Clegg and Miliband seen as devious and worthless. I started this campaign hoping for Devo-max and it looks like that is now the minimum we shall get. And England will now almost certainly get a Grand Committee which will ensure that Conservatives make domestic decisions about most English affairs and Scotland can continue to make decisions about all devolved matters. And there will be the threat of revisiting Independence if there is any sign of back-sliding. I now approach next Thursday with no trepidation; whatever the outcome, we will have won a major battle at least. Interesting times ahead! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/565 "2014-09-10T13:02:51Z")
I would also point out that the way that the Westminster establishment has capitulated so completely indicates just how frightened they are of political instability, which indicates a generally prompt and pleasant settlement should the vote be YES. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/566 "2014-09-10T13:04:26Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Is it true, or close, that 40% of British enlistments in the services come from 5% of population Scotland? Scotland has always been over represented in the UK armed forces through habit and poverty. Even with Independence, Scots would still be able to serve in the rUK armed forces as Commonwealth citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/567 "2014-09-10T13:10:39Z")
Cameron, Clegg and Miliband are all heading north in an eleventh-hour effort to keep Scotland in the UK: [http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/world/europe/uk-scottish-independence/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/world/europe/uk-scottish-independence/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/568 "2014-09-10T13:16:30Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Cameron, Clegg and Miliband are all heading north in an eleventh-hour effort to keep Scotland in the UK: [http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/world/europe/uk-scottish-independence/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/world/europe/uk-scottish-independence/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) Have been watching on BBC and SKy. Prescott managed to suggest that a Scotland England football team might beat Germany- received by a crowd of Better Together supporters in silence except for the intake of breath. He obviously knows nothing of Scotland. Salmond is at his slick best, offering to pay their bus fare up! ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/569 "2014-09-10T13:19:13Z")
Investors are pulling billions of pounds out of Scotland and contracts are being rewritten with escape clauses in case Scotland votes yes, [according to the FT](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c43c9a14-3846-11e4-9fc2-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Cor5c5rE). ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/570 "2014-09-10T13:20:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would also point out that the way that the Westminster establishment has capitulated so completely indicates just how frightened they are of political instability, which indicates a generally prompt and pleasant settlement should the vote be YES. Pjen, I think you’re mistaking the SDMB for the comments section of Wings Over Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/571 "2014-09-10T13:27:30Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Pjen, I think you’re mistaking the SDMB for the comments section of Wings Over Scotland. This thread is called Whither Scotland. The latest panic by the Westminster establishment tells us which way Scotland will go whether there is a YES or NO vote. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/572 "2014-09-10T13:55:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland has always been over represented in the UK armed forces through habit and poverty. Good thing for you that the UK has been there to provide employment and reduce poverty, then. > [@](#): > > Even with Independence, Scots would still be able to serve in the rUK armed forces as Commonwealth citizens. Every good independent state wants its people to serve in the armed forces of the “oppressor” :smack: But, like everything else to do with the rUK, whether Scots could serve in the British armed forces would be up to us, not to you, despite your constant unfounded assertions to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/573 "2014-09-10T14:01:58Z")
Just like the Quecbois in Canada, the SNP are nervous of winningin Scotland because they know the consequences of a vote for independence would be disasterous for both Scotland and the UK. If they lose the vote, the big question is by how much. If it is a small margin, we will be facing a neverendum, with constant calls for another one. However, realistically, I think everyone would have had quite enough of this question for at least a decade. The SNP are certainly on a Win-Win situation, if they stay in power in Scotland. The devolved powers further their agenda, but it might also expose them to the consequences of their welfare policy. It was interesting that they did not actually use the tax raising powers they were given last time in order to keep in favour with Scottish electorate. Maybe they will introduce a ‘Tartan tax’ to finance their pet projects. But at least they can be kicked out by the voters when there is an election. I think this will be good for the other parties, especially Labour, which needs to rebuild its support base in Scotland. So, indeed, there will be a lot crowing either way from the Nationalists. They are full of that. But if Scotland votes yes, that crowing will soon turn into forboding because it won’t be business as usual anymore and everyone will be out of their comfort zone. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/574 "2014-09-10T15:01:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Good thing for you that the UK has been there to provide employment and reduce poverty, then. > > Every good independent state wants its people to serve in the armed forces of the “oppressor” :smack: > > But, like everything else to do with the rUK, whether Scots could serve in the British armed forces would be up to us, not to you, despite your constant unfounded assertions to the contrary. No other member of the commonwealth is banned from serving in the UK armed forces. In fact they actively recruit in several of them. And loss of the skilled manpower in the Scottish Regiments would cripple the Army. The BBC has just had an interview with a Professor of Politics who says that British citizens will continue for all current citizens no matter what. I telephoned the Embassy of Croatia in London. They confirm that Croatia became a full member of the EEA in August. They are happy to confirm that FACT with you- 020 7387 2022. Apart from those you are doing quite well with defending your interesting beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/575 "2014-09-10T15:05:47Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Just like the Quecbois in Canada, the SNP are nervous of winningin Scotland because they know the consequences of a vote for independence would be disasterous for both Scotland and the UK. > > If they lose the vote, the big question is by how much. If it is a small margin, we will be facing a neverendum, with constant calls for another one. However, realistically, I think everyone would have had quite enough of this question for at least a decade. > > The SNP are certainly on a Win-Win situation, if they stay in power in Scotland. The devolved powers further their agenda, but it might also expose them to the consequences of their welfare policy. It was interesting that they did not actually use the tax raising powers they were given last time in order to keep in favour with Scottish electorate. Maybe they will introduce a ‘Tartan tax’ to finance their pet projects. But at least they can be kicked out by the voters when there is an election. I think this will be good for the other parties, especially Labour, which needs to rebuild its support base in Scotland. > > So, indeed, there will be a lot crowing either way from the Nationalists. They are full of that. But if Scotland votes yes, that crowing will soon turn into forboding because it won’t be business as usual anymore and everyone will be out of their comfort zone. The BBC has been discussing what happens if the UK cannot negotiate a way to remain in the EC. They conclude that if the UK were to attempt to withdraw, there would certainly be another referendum. I certainly expect another referendum in the next decade if there is a NO vote; specific polling shows that the strongest Better Together sentiment is among the over sixties and this is obviously a declining cohort. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/576 "2014-09-10T15:06:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Good thing for you that the UK has been there to provide employment and reduce poverty, then. > > Every good independent state wants its people to serve in the armed forces of the “oppressor” :smack: > > But, like everything else to do with the rUK, whether Scots could serve in the British armed forces would be up to us, not to you, despite your constant unfounded assertions to the contrary. Oh, and it may be up to me as I am English! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/577 "2014-09-10T15:20:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No other member of the commonwealth is banned from serving in the UK armed forces. In fact they actively recruit in several of them. And loss of the skilled manpower in the Scottish Regiments would cripple the Army. No doubt. My point is, it’s up to the UK, not Scotland, whether to do so. > [@](#): > > The BBC has just had an interview with a Professor of Politics who says that British citizens will continue for all current citizens no matter what. No doubt. My point is, it’s up to the UK, not Scotland, whether to do so. > [@](#): > > I telephoned the Embassy of Croatia in London. They confirm that Croatia became a full member of the EEA in August. They are happy to confirm that FACT with you- 020 7387 2022. Ok, I was wrong, Croatia is a full member of the EEA. It took it over a year from joining the EU to become such. Why do you keep insisting that Scotland will be treated differently? > [@](#): > > Apart from those you are doing quite well with defending your interesting beliefs. My “interesting” belief that the UK decides who is a British citizen, who is eligible to serve in its armed forces, and who gets to mint and control its currency? They don’t need defending. It is your belief that the rUK will act against its own interests in favour of Scotland’s that need defending. I expect all Scottish citizens to also be UK citizens, and to be eligible to join the UK armed forces for the foreseeable future, but only if it’s in the UK’s interest for that to happen. The only reason I can see that it wouldn’t be is if Scotland expects, as you expect, massive concessions from the UK without making any itself. I also expect Scotland to start its own currency, as required prior to joining the EU, and that it will be able to do so in the time period between the vote and actual independence. If that proves impossible, a short, temporary currency union would make sense until that currency could be established. Also, is it established that Scotland will join the Commonwealth? It would appear to be eligible if the population want to join, but the only precedent is against joining - although the circumstances in 1949 were very different. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/578 "2014-09-10T15:22:58Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Oh, and it may be up to me as I am English! Being English doesn’t affect whether it’s up to you, it’ll be whether you’re eligible to vote in the UK. Which I suspect that, being permanently resident in Scotland, you wouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/579 "2014-09-10T15:37:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Being English doesn’t affect whether it’s up to you, it’ll be whether you’re eligible to vote in the UK. Which I suspect that, being permanently resident in Scotland, you wouldn’t be. I will be eligible to vote as an ex pat should we get independence for at least fifteen years in my previous constituency. You are making a remarkable series of unsupported statements. Did you note the opinion of the professor above that all current Brits would retain their passports. When asked if passports would be withdrawn she said that it was “unthinkable”. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/580 "2014-09-10T15:41:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No doubt. My point is, it’s up to the UK, not Scotland, whether to do so. > > No doubt. My point is, it’s up to the UK, not Scotland, whether to do so. > > Ok, I was wrong, Croatia is a full member of the EEA. It took it over a year from joining the EU to become such. Why do you keep insisting that Scotland will be treated differently? > > My “interesting” belief that the UK decides who is a British citizen, who is eligible to serve in its armed forces, and who gets to mint and control its currency? They don’t need defending. > > It is your belief that the rUK will act against its own interests in favour of Scotland’s that need defending. I expect all Scottish citizens to also be UK citizens, and to be eligible to join the UK armed forces for the foreseeable future, but only if it’s in the UK’s interest for that to happen. The only reason I can see that it wouldn’t be is if Scotland expects, as you expect, massive concessions from the UK without making any itself. I also expect Scotland to start its own currency, as required prior to joining the EU, and that it will be able to do so in the time period between the vote and actual independence. If that proves impossible, a short, temporary currency union would make sense until that currency could be established. > > Also, is it established that Scotland will join the Commonwealth? It would appear to be eligible if the population want to join, but the only precedent is against joining - although the circumstances in 1949 were very different. I have addressed most of your post. As a realm of QEII Scotland would be eligible to be a Commonwealth member automatically- go read the appropriate documents. Ireland chose not to be a member. It is still eligible for readmission as it still meets the current criteria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=30)