# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/581 "2014-09-10T15:52:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I have addressed most of your post. As a realm of QEII Scotland would be eligible to be a Commonwealth member automatically- go read the appropriate documents. Ireland chose not to be a member. It is still eligible for readmission as it still meets the current criteria. Yes, I said that as far as I can tell it would be eligible to join. The only issue would be if the population was against it. And you’ve repeatedly refused to answer my question as to why you think the EU or the EEA will allow Scotland to join automatically, when there’s no precedent for it. Neither have you addressed the issue of what currency Scotland would use prior to entering the EU, as using Sterling would disqualify it from membership. Do you think the EU is going to ignore or change its rules so Scotland can be admitted? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/582 "2014-09-10T15:56:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You are making a remarkable series of unsupported statements. Did you note the opinion of the professor above that all current Brits would retain their passports. When asked if passports would be withdrawn she said that it was “unthinkable”. Is that opinion binding on future UK governments? If not, it is clearly thinkable. Hell, I’m thinking it now. It is a pretty meaningless sort of “independence” you want, where you remain citizens of the previous country, continue to serve in their armed forces, continue to vote in their elections, and continue to use their currency. Indeed, that sounds far more like “dependence”. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/583 "2014-09-10T16:02:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I said that as far as I can tell it would be eligible to join. The only issue would be if the population was against it. > > And you’ve repeatedly refused to answer my question as to why you think the EU or the EEA will allow Scotland to join automatically, when there’s no precedent for it. Neither have you addressed the issue of what currency Scotland would use prior to entering the EU, as using Sterling would disqualify it from membership. > > Do you think the EU is going to ignore or change its rules so Scotland can be admitted? If so, why? I am unconcerned about Full EU membership and currency for reasons I have previously explained. Although full EU membership will take a time to negotiate, I expect that realistically the EU will not want five million European citizens and the industries etch of Scotland to be beyond a tariff wall. They also would be losing a considerable amount of the EU fisheries area. So long ad Scotland is inside the Tariff wall Scotland has no worries. All Scots will have rights to live and work in the EU because of their retention of British Passports. Deciding on an eventual currency may take a few years. It is in the EU and rUK interest to negotiate a smooth passage to its own currency or the Euro. In the meantime we can survive as Ireland did for nearly fifty years. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/584 "2014-09-10T16:08:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Is that opinion binding on future UK governments? If not, it is clearly thinkable. Hell, I’m thinking it now. > > It is a pretty meaningless sort of “independence” you want, where you remain citizens of the previous country, continue to serve in their armed forces, continue to vote in their elections, and continue to use their currency. Indeed, that sounds far more like “dependence”. But I am as English as any other person. Mere residence has never been a concern for British citizens. I have friends in their eighties in the USA who emigrated over fifty years ago and still retain their British Passports. I have an Australian friend who has obtained Australian passports for her children who have never visited Australia. I have another friend who was born of English parents in Australia in 1955. They returned in 1961 and never returned except for vacations. He is moving to Australia to retire on the Gold Coast despite not having lived there for nearly sixty years. Once a passport holder you retain that original nationality in the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/585 "2014-09-10T16:31:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In the meantime we can survive as Ireland did for nearly fifty years. If survival is your only goal, then fair enough I guess. But Scotland in the UK is thriving, and Ireland currently is not. Ireland is, however, doing better than it was as part of the UK, something that even the most optimistic projections don’t show Scotland doing. > [@Pjen](#): > > Once a passport holder you retain that original nationality in the modern world. I don’t envisage anyone being stripped of their passports, but if they don’t renew them it may be a different matter. Anyway, we’re not talking about the modern world but the future, and decades in the future. Things change, and the way many things change will be out of Scotland’s hands if it becomes independent. I’ll ask again, as you still refuse to answer it. Why do you assume that everyone else is going to act in Scotland’s best interests and not their own? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/586 "2014-09-10T16:35:57Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I think a Yes is absolutely on the cards now - Yes has a much better grassroots campaign set up which will always make a difference; Better Together is beginning to look panicky and shambolic; most importantly, the total absence of a positive case for Union in the debate has left a big hole. > > Add to that the fact that people are more likely to vote Yes if Yes looks like winning (you might not bother if the polls said 30%, but at 50% every vote counts; also, no-one wants to be on the losing side) and there’s the potential for a major historical event on the cards. Speaking of absence, I liked how they’ve sidelined Alistair Darling and brought Gordon Brown to the forefront, shambolic indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/587 "2014-09-10T16:45:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ll ask again, as you still refuse to answer it. Why do you assume that everyone else is going to act in Scotland’s best interests and not their own? Realpolitik and self interest. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/588 "2014-09-10T16:49:39Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Speaking of absence, I liked how they’ve sidelined Alistair Darling and brought Gordon Brown to the forefront, shambolic indeed. Alistair Darling has been interviewed a lot today. It is just diluted by Cameron, Clegg and Miliband. The high point of the day was Prescott thinking it would be a good idea to moot the possibility of a Scotland/England football team defeating Germany. He does not understand Scotland, Scots SUPPORT Germany BECAUSE they regularly beat England. Foot in mouth! He had his nots from a briefing photographed. Interestingly one of the bullet points was “Do not bring up the currency”!!! They must have found from polling that that scare story is not working. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/589 "2014-09-10T16:59:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Realpolitik and self interest. Saying it’s in their self interest doesn’t answer the question of why they’d support you when it isn’t in their self interest :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/590 "2014-09-10T17:05:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Saying it’s in their self interest doesn’t answer the question of why they’d support you when it isn’t in their self interest :smack: Stability is in everybodies’ self interest. If rUK Scottish negotiations tank, so does the pound- markets hate uncertainty. I am expecting a ten per cent devaluation next Friday and the pound may drop as far as $1.40. Have just bought Disney and Universal tickets and even paid hotels in advance for October. I drew $2000 earlier. If the pound is to regain its natural level of about $1.60, then no risks can be taken. Same for the EU- they will not want any unplanned stressors to their economy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/591 "2014-09-10T17:48:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Stability is in everybodies’ self interest. So why the fuck are you such a strong advocate of Scotland destroying that stability? Yes, everybody with any sense would prefer you didn’t become independent, but if you insist on it, and destroy that stability, then no-one’s going to thank you or go out of their way to help you… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/592 "2014-09-10T17:54:27Z")
And might even, out of spite or a desire to make good on earlier warnings, try to hurt you. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/593 "2014-09-10T18:06:14Z")
Well, I for one, would never hurt a once beloved ex-partner who had rejected one and broken up the firm for childish self-determination. I would make sure they got everything that was coming to them, good and hard. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/594 "2014-09-10T18:17:06Z")
I do admire the way Salmond’s been saying “The UK and EU will \*have \*to do what we want, because we’re \*Scots \*and we’re _united_!”. Reality has its own way of looking at things sometimes, though. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/595 "2014-09-10T18:25:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And might even, out of spite or a desire to make good on earlier warnings, try to hurt you. Indeed, spite is possible, if unlikely. And if that’s what the people who would treat us that way actually think of us, why on Earth would we want to be in a union with them in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/596 "2014-09-10T18:25:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And might even, out of spite or a desire to make good on earlier warnings, try to hurt you. To be honest, I doubt that will happen, but my point is that it’s out of Scotland’s hands whether anyone does or not. What is more likely to happen is that countries will act in a way that harms Scotland, not out of any interest in Scotland itself, but to discourage other separatist movements. The UK is extremely unusual in being as supportive as it is of independence for a part of itself. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/597 "2014-09-10T18:26:47Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Well, I for one, would never hurt a once beloved ex-partner who had rejected one and broken up the firm for childish self-determination. I would make sure they got everything that was coming to them, good and hard. Which would probably, of course, be the real reason said partner broke up with you in the first place. Luckily for all concerned, I suspect the rUK government would not act out of spite. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/598 "2014-09-10T18:32:03Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Indeed, spite is possible, if unlikely. And if that’s what the people who would treat us that way actually think of us, why on Earth would we want to be in a union with them in the first place? If you wanted to be in a union with us, we wouldn’t feel that way… As I said, I don’t think anyone wants to spite Scotland. I think there’s a percentage of Scots who want to spite England, and wish to use the UK as a proxy for that, but I’m just hopeful that, however the vote goes, that side doesn’t prevail in the negotiations, and the UK doesn’t have to act in a way that harms Scotland. But the obvious issue is Faslane. Any suggestion that it has to be moved in a time period less than decades will be strongly resisted by the UK, quite possibly to the extent of making any support for Scotland conditional on that. Hopefully if the Scots can negotiate like adults (something I suspect Salmond is incapable of doing) it won’t be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/599 "2014-09-10T18:39:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you wanted to be in a union with us, we wouldn’t feel that way… As I said, I don’t think anyone wants to spite Scotland. I think there’s a percentage of Scots who want to spite England, and wish to use the UK as a proxy for that, but I’m just hopeful that, however the vote goes, that side doesn’t prevail in the negotiations, and the UK doesn’t have to act in a way that harms Scotland. > > But the obvious issue is Faslane. Any suggestion that it has to be moved in a time period less than decades will be strongly resisted by the UK, quite possibly to the extent of making any support for Scotland conditional on that. Hopefully if the Scots can negotiate like adults (something I suspect Salmond is incapable of doing) it won’t be an issue. I don’t think anyone wants to spite Scotland either, which is why I’m surprised that people in this thread keep suggesting that that’s the way the rUK would or should approach any negotiations. As to stuff like Faslane, yes I agree - it won’t be going away any time soon and I’m pretty sure everyone knows that. Salmond is actually quite a good negotiator - that’s how he got to this point in the first place - but he’s in “campaign” mode at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/600 "2014-09-10T18:45:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The high point of the day was Prescott thinking it would be a good idea to moot the possibility of a Scotland/England football team defeating Germany. He does not understand Scotland, Scots SUPPORT Germany BECAUSE they regularly beat England. Foot in mouth! Silly Prescott, eh? Thinking Scots might be more interested in working with England than watching them lose. Just like Cameron being so stupid as to think that Scots might be able to hear his words without automatically opposing what he says because of who he is. Cameron said “vote no” so people are going to vote yes - ha ha ha! Some “yes” cheerleaders seem to delight in pointing out the pettiness of some of those on their own side. I thought it was the “no” side who were bitter, **Pjen**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=31)