# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/601 "2014-09-10T18:52:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So why the fuck are you such a strong advocate of Scotland destroying that stability? Yes, everybody with any sense would prefer you didn’t become independent, but if you insist on it, and destroy that stability, then no-one’s going to thank you or go out of their way to help you… “Everybody” except half the Scottish electorate. It’s called democracy. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/602 "2014-09-10T18:55:15Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Silly Prescott, eh? Thinking Scots might be more interested in working with England than watching them lose. Uh, Prescott’s real mistake was to mix football and politics. No good ever comes of that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/603 "2014-09-10T18:56:34Z")
Could he yell “Up Rangers!” or something like that and get half the country to vote with him? And half against, yes, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/604 "2014-09-10T18:58:38Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Silly Prescott, eh? Thinking Scots might be more interested in working with England than watching them lose. > > Just like Cameron being so stupid as to think that Scots might be able to hear his words without automatically opposing what he says because of who he is. Cameron said “vote no” so people are going to vote yes - ha ha ha! > > Some “yes” cheerleaders seem to delight in pointing out the pettiness of some of those on their own side. > > I thought it was the “no” side who were bitter, **Pjen**? I was pointing out how ill advised and counter productive his suggestion was. Anyone who knows the first thing about Scotland knows that there is massive support for LAnyone Bu England"; they even support Argentina! Suggesting a joint Scottish/English team shows a total lack of understanding of Scottish sensitivities. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/605 "2014-09-10T19:00:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Could he yell “Up Rangers!” or something like that and get half the country to vote with him? > > And half against, yes, I know. This Saturday there is a Unionist March planned in Glasgow complete with Union Jacks, Orange banners, Rangers Strips and Union Jacks with Never Surrender emblazoned on the. That should firm up the Labour Catholic vote! ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/606 "2014-09-10T19:02:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Anyone who knows the first thing about Scotland knows that there is massive support for LAnyone Bu England"; they even support Argentina! That support isn’t as big as you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/607 "2014-09-10T19:09:34Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > “Everybody” except half the Scottish electorate. It’s called democracy. As I said, anyone with any sense. And there’s been no suggestion as yet that half the Scottish electorate support independence, slightly less that 40% in the most recent polls. There’s no question that independence will be economically damaging to Scotland and, to a lesser extent, the rUK, and also that it will be seriously damaging to Scotland politically. There is a serious, and unanswered, question of why anyone who understands that would support it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/608 "2014-09-10T19:23:39Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That support isn’t as big as you think it is. Test in the bats here. Obviously it will be different in Morningside. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/609 "2014-09-10T19:26:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As I said, anyone with any sense. And there’s been no suggestion as yet that half the Scottish electorate support independence, slightly less that 40% in the most recent polls. > > There’s no question that independence will be economically damaging to Scotland and, to a lesser extent, the rUK, and also that it will be seriously damaging to Scotland politically. There is a serious, and unanswered, question of why anyone who understands that would support it. Actually, and it pains me to say this, recent polls show YES in the lead. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/610 "2014-09-10T19:27:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As I said, anyone with any sense. And there’s been no suggestion as yet that half the Scottish electorate support independence, slightly less that 40% in the most recent polls. > > There’s no question that independence will be economically damaging to Scotland and, to a lesser extent, the rUK, and also that it will be seriously damaging to Scotland politically. There is a serious, and unanswered, question of why anyone who understands that would support it. A majority is a majority. We shall see. I respect people who differ from my views, not wanting to mock their views, just disagree with them. Suggesting that all people who desire an independent Scotland are stupid or making decisions for reasons they do not understand as fully as you think they do is just abuse and makes such people exposed to it angry at the perpetrator. It is neo-colonial attitudes like that that drives peel in the middle onto the YES camp. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/611 "2014-09-10T19:29:24Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Actually, and it pains me to say this, recent polls show YES in the lead. He has said that he believes that it should need a 62.5% vote to authorise independence to reach a majority of the electorate rather than a plurality of the votes cast. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/612 "2014-09-10T19:30:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Test in the bats here. Obviously it will be different in Morningside. Bars not bats. Damned auto correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/613 "2014-09-10T19:38:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I was pointing out how ill advised and counter productive his suggestion was. Anyone who knows the first thing about Scotland knows that there is massive support for LAnyone Bu England"; they even support Argentina! Suggesting a joint Scottish/English team shows a total lack of understanding of Scottish sensitivities. Maybe he was talking to the more reasonable people in the audience. It sounds, to me, that your idea of “Scottish sensitivities” is a gross generalization. If I were Scottish, I would be quite irritated by an Englishman coming into my country and saying, essentially, that everyone knows Scots are petty. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/614 "2014-09-10T19:40:57Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Actually, and it pains me to say this, recent polls show YES in the lead. Well one did, and another that came out the same day didn’t. And today’s Survation poll gives “No” the nod 53/47 (excluding don’t knows). That’s still damn close. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/615 "2014-09-10T19:42:29Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Actually, and it pains me to say this, recent polls show YES in the lead. The U.S. coverage of the polls stated that they did not include undecided voters. Is that so? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/616 "2014-09-10T19:42:47Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Actually, and it pains me to say this, recent polls show YES in the lead. The polls show about a 51% Yes vote on an 80% turnout. That’s not a majority of the electorate, something that **Pjen** has repeatedly claimed. To allow independence when only a minority actually want it would be tragic, but it looks possible that that will happen. Which will only make the recriminations when the reality sets in that much more bitter. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/617 "2014-09-10T19:45:26Z")
You can’t infer what non-voters want, only that they don’t care much either way. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/618 "2014-09-10T19:47:05Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Maybe he was talking to the more reasonable people in the audience. It sounds, to me, that your idea of “Scottish sensitivities” is a gross generalization. If I were Scottish, I would be quite irritated by an Englishman coming into my country and saying, essentially, that everyone knows Scots are petty. Not so much petty as bar room barracking. There is no more pettiness than Man Utd v Man City or Spurs and the Gunners. It was a monumentally stupid thing for an Englishman (sort of) to make when trying to win over Scots. He was in front of a large NO crowd and they had been cheering everything that he said; after that comment there was an awkward silence except for sharp intakes of breath. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/619 "2014-09-10T19:49:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The polls show about a 51% Yes vote on an 80% turnout. That’s not a majority of the electorate, something that **Pjen** has repeatedly claimed. > > To allow independence when only a minority actually want it would be tragic, but it looks possible that that will happen. Which will only make the recriminations when the reality sets in that much more bitter. Straw man. I have never said “majority of the electorate” merely majority as it is usually used in votes- majority of votes cast. What has been agreed is that it will be decided on the majority of votes cast. See the Edinburgh Agreement. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/620 "2014-09-10T19:50:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The polls show about a 51% Yes vote on an 80% turnout. That’s not a majority of the electorate, something that **Pjen** has repeatedly claimed. > > To allow independence when only a minority actually want it would be tragic, but it looks possible that that will happen. Which will only make the recriminations when the reality sets in that much more bitter. How do you know the opinions of people who didn’t vote? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=32)