# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/741 "2014-09-13T15:51:56Z")
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/742 "2014-09-13T16:10:00Z")
_"Scotland today, as columnist Ian Bell recently wrote in Glasgow’s Herald newspaper, is a “carnival of democracy”—meaning the country is witnessing a great flowering of civic dialogue and political awareness. I saw and felt some of that when I visited Glasgow in recent days, less than two weeks before the Sept. 18 independence referendum. But there was rather more of those other things people normally associate with carnivals, namely, folly and farce._ > **[The Folly of Scottish Independence](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-folly-of-scottish-independence-1410287599)** > > In The Wall Street Journal, Sohrab Ahmari reports from Glasgow's "carnival of democracy." ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/743 "2014-09-13T16:23:59Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > And, it may well be correct in all aspects. The clans certainly had no love for each other. Even among my McAlister folks from over in Kintyre, one group of McAlisters (Loup) had nothing but loathing for the other (Tarbert). When the Jacobites rose, many times the McAlisters would not go off to fight anywhere because they rightly felt that if they left their homes, the other group of McAlisters would go steal all their goods and cattle. So they both stayed put and did some minor raids on one another. > > One guide told us that the enmity in Britain was english fighting lowlander scots and lowlander scots fighting highlanders, and highlanders fighting one another. Wallace, for example, was a well educated and valiant lowlander, whose fights against the English had nothing to do with, and no help from, the Highland Clans. > > One nice lady on Kintyre told us, “We should stay together with the English…if we separate it will go back to the way it always was, with us raiding their farms and burning their kirks, and them doing the same to us. Besides, my mother has a pension from the mail service and if we go independent, she might lose it!” Just a sidenote. It should never be forgotten that 9 times out of 10 when the English and Scots were fighting it was the Lowlanders and Borderers who were on the wrong end(and the right end too) of violence, atrocity and so on. Your average Highland clan was nowhere to be seen as an English Army marched over the border into Scotland. Of course, it was your average Lowlander and Borderer who were doing the exact same violence in Northern England. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/744 "2014-09-13T18:04:13Z")
Scottish nationalists often refer back to historic battles between the English and Scots seven hundred years ago. The reality was England had been conquered by French speaking Norman knights and these battles were more about their rivalries in Scotland and attempts to secure a power base than any notion of nationhood. It was a game of thrones. Still, a people struggling for liberation from cruelties of an oppressive colonialist power to forge their own proud nation. That is a story that resonated with 19th century nationalism and was the basis of many a romantic tale embroidered by the imagination of writers. That it has been co-opted in the 21st century for the purposes of convincing the Scots to separate from the English is unsurprising, but it won’t undo the significant differences between parts of Scotland. Submerging old conflicts under a common concept of shared national identity will require more than just wishful thinking post independence. They will have to undo the fondness for this other popular identity: British. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/745 "2014-09-13T18:43:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk) Is it too much to ask to give at least some description of what you are linking too? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/746 "2014-09-14T00:17:55Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > I have two (10great) uncles who were starved to death by the English on a prison ship in New York Harbor. a bunch of (8 or 9 great grandparents) who had to flee for their lives with their property seized for being Jacobite supporters…I’m not the one to give the English any credit. > > On the other hand, one of my other gggggggggrandparents, English, emigrated to Jamestown in about 1609, shipwrecked on Bermuda, wrote a tract about it and had the story stolen by this playwrite in London who became famous as a result 🙂 the natives killed him about 7 years later, but his wife and sons survived the attack and founded a line that included 6 men who were with Boone at Boonesboro during the English/native attacks of 1777 and 1778. One of them has a statue on the Capital grounds in Lexington. In their case, 160 years of life in the ‘Colonies’ left them with no patriotism for England and an abiding thirst for land they could claim beyond the Blue Ridge. > > So, I don’t doubt there are excellent reasons why Scotland should remain part of GB and NI, but when the thirst for independence strikes some particular Scotsman, he answers the question about his intention to vote for independence, “Damned Right!” A bit of watered down beer is not too big a price to pay for ‘Freedom’. This sort of reasoning is exactly why I fucking hate Norwegians. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/747 "2014-09-14T08:15:47Z")
It seems worth pointing out that you’ll have around 1,000 8th great grandparents, around 2,000 of the previous generation, and so on. I’m sure we all have ancestors who have suffered great injustices, and I’m sure we all have ancestors who have committed them. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/748 "2014-09-14T08:29:27Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Add in religious conflict (the story of the [Covenanters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenanter) is interesting if you haven’t seen it before) and it seems that Scotland was all blood and guts back in the day. We did manage an [Enlightenment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enlightenment) too though, honest, it wasn’t all war in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Scottish Enlightenment, it should be noted, followed upon, and was, in crucial respects, a consequence of, the union. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/749 "2014-09-14T14:21:58Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > It seems worth pointing out that you’ll have around 1,000 8th great grandparents, around 2,000 of the previous generation, and so on. > > I’m sure we all have ancestors who have suffered great injustices, and I’m sure we all have ancestors who have committed them. obviously, allowing 30 years for each generation, about 330 years separate me from my 8th great grandparents. There are 1024 of them, so if I am typical, 330 years ago, there were something like 2.5 trillion people on the earth… so, we had to have many ancestors who married some degree of cousin, or there would be too many of us to count. oddly, in my genealogy research, I haven’t found any duplicates, but I’ve only identified a few in that 1680-1700 time frame. I think the influx of immigrants and refugees from all over that made up the place we now call America, gave us more diversity in our lineages than, say, someplace in Europe where people have lived for 1000 years. I imagine one could look at royal pedigrees and find, generally, any current noble in england has far fewer ancestors than, say, me. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/750 "2014-09-14T14:23:43Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > It seems worth pointing out that you’ll have around 1,000 8th great grandparents, around 2,000 of the previous generation, and so on. > > I’m sure we all have ancestors who have suffered great injustices, and I’m sure we all have ancestors who have committed them. Hell, some of my Great Great Grandparents were Northern Irish Catholics. Not quite sure how I am supposed to deal with that, seeing as I’m a Brit. I guess I’ll just have to be an adult and let it go. Or just not even think about it as it doesn’t actually matter. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/751 "2014-09-14T14:29:18Z")
Naturally, if you look at the numbers through the other end of the telescope, each set of 8th ggrandparents, if each generation produced 3 descendants from each pair(plug in a marriage partner)…in only 8 generations, each pair would have 133,000 descendants. That would figure out to be only about 60000 people in the whole world 330 years ago… yes, there has to be a whole lot of marrying cousins (of whatever degree). ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/752 "2014-09-14T14:30:06Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > obviously, allowing 30 years for each generation, about 330 years separate me from my 8th great grandparents. There are 1024 of them, so if I am typical, 330 years ago, there were something like 2.5 trillion people on the earth… > > so, we had to have many ancestors who married some degree of cousin, or there would be too many of us to count. oddly, in my genealogy research, I haven’t found any duplicates, but I’ve only identified a few in that 1680-1700 time frame. I think the influx of immigrants and refugees from all over that made up the place we now call America, gave us more diversity in our lineages than, say, someplace in Europe where people have lived for 1000 years. > > I imagine one could look at royal pedigrees and find, generally, any current noble in england has far fewer ancestors than, say, me. Still doesn’t explain what perceived injustices to a couple of your 1024 8th Grandparents has to do with anything. As I said up there ^^^ my lineage in one section, goes quickly back to Northern Ireland and is Catholic (hell, that side of my family up until my Scottish mother is Catholic). Going by my name, my Father’s side will eventually get back to Scotland. If I tried to force some kind of outrage for injustices centuries ago I wouldn’t know where to start as literally everyone was shit to everyone at some point. Basically, eventually you have to let shit go. And frankly when it comes to stuff centuries ago that shit should have been let go a long, long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/753 "2014-09-14T14:57:49Z")
there are probably dozens of regional conflicts that have continued for a thousand years or more…many of them have roots in religious belief differences, Shia vs. Sunni; Eastern Catholic vs. Roman; protestant vs. catholic; Sikh vs. Buddist; Moslem vs. Christian Slav and Serb… North Central Arkansas Synod Episcopalian Methodist vs. North Central Missouri Synod Episcoopalian Methodist…burning each other’s churches…refusing to allow member of each others churches to partake of rites in their own churches… Men piggyback on those conflicts to try to advance their own political agendas. Protest as you may, they are still doing it and will continue. Scots still see something in the English character that offends them, and vice versa. The differences are really minor and manageable, obviously, but men who want to advance their agendas will try to use them. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/754 "2014-09-14T16:41:22Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Scots still see something in the English character that offends them, and vice versa. You are generalizing rather offensively here, and from the vantage point of a different continent. Rein it in. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/755 "2014-09-14T17:15:22Z")
Yeah, there were/are no wealthy Scots industrialists and tyrants, with their Waylon Smithers-like Scots bootlicking acolytes exploiting their countrymen and other peoples during the feudal, capitalist and imperial periods… _“We’re a’ Jock Tamson’s Bairns”_ _boozy tears flood the bar_ ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/756 "2014-09-14T17:17:51Z")
Let’s keep it civil. Things like ‘rein it in’ are best left to me and the other moderators. If a post irritates you, please report it. No warning. Not even a hand spat. More a raised eyebrow and questioning glance. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/757 "2014-09-14T17:51:23Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > No warning. Not even a hand spat. More a raised eyebrow and questioning glance. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/758 "2014-09-14T21:47:54Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > You are generalizing rather offensively here, and from the vantage point of a different continent. Rein it in. I certainly don’t mind you saying that. I might dispute it, based on my recent visit and many conversations with Scots, but if it is your opinion, what keeps you from saying it? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/759 "2014-09-14T21:50:06Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Let’s keep it civil. Things like ‘rein it in’ are best left to me and the other moderators. If a post irritates you, please report it. > > No warning. Not even a hand spat. More a raised eyebrow and questioning glance. hardly offensive. he or she didn’t like what I said, objected to it, said I was overgeneralizing and that I should be careful not to. I understood that. Big deal. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/760 "2014-09-14T22:05:06Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > hardly offensive. he or she didn’t like what I said, objected to it, said I was overgeneralizing and that I should be careful not to. I understood that. Big deal. You were over-generalising and you were being offensive. You may not see this, possibly because you are a foreigner. So you’ll just have to take it from me, you were. Frankly it was along the lines of “all Americans are stupid, fat and can’t find France on a map”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=39)