# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/781 "2014-09-16T02:47:16Z")
A lot more than cousins get it on. Human nature being what it is, the paternity of children is often inconsistent with the public record. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/782 "2014-09-16T04:28:46Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Better Together have run the most incapable, patronising, negative, incompetent political campaign in modern times, and given the horror that was the Yes To AV campaign in the AV referendum a few years ago, that’s saying something. There’s times when I’ve thought that the three major Westminster parties were trying to drive Scotland out of the Union the campaign to keep them in has been that bad. > > Case in point: the recent TV advert targeting women voters that managed to patronise and insult every woman in the land. Even worse, the female demographic was already leaning towards “no” anyway, so there was absolutely no reason to waste precious advertising money/time on targeting them, whilst completely ignoring the number of traditional Scottish Labour voters that are joining the “Yes” campaign. Two days ago I had a flash [similar to old Romney’s 47% bit, when I told people he now _wanted_ to lose the election] on seeing John Major, former conservative prime minister and a byword for centuries for personal integrity, economic excellence and an entire absence of small-minded rancour, had chosen _that_ moment to denounce the labour party over independence, just when they needed a united front. Obviously, since ineptitude was his shining star, he _could_ have been sincere, but it just seemed pure sabotage. _Suppose it was a Tory plot all along ?_ They get shot of Scotland, to them a labour-voting welfare dependent third wheel, offload it and all future liabilities on to a willing simp, and concentrate the rest. So they lose the Oil: that’s not going to last that long, and besides the oil companies make most of the money anyway. Whom they have shares in. They only valued the place for grouse-shooting and they can still do that as most of Scotland is owned by a handful of Scottish magnates. \* They don’t care about Britain, they care about money, maintaining the system and pleasing their masters. - **[Half of Scotland is owned by 432 people](http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/scotland-land-reform-yiannis-niki-lairds)**. The SNP may look into this, but most new nationalist governments on the world, however revolutionary, quickly made pacts with the very rich for mutual support and friendship. Of course many of the independence seekers _were_ the very rich. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/783 "2014-09-16T10:21:19Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > If the vote is passed, the Conservatives will turn on themselves and there will be pressure for Cameron to resign. At the same time Labour will face being hobbled by the loss of the Scots MPs. Any new government will face a hideous amount of work dealing with the separation of Scotland. It will require all kinds of new legislation and restructuring of important public services and there will be a massive costs that will badly affect the prospects of another government implementing its political programme. A poisoned chalice. I think it more likely that Miliband will go rather than Cameron on any loss of Scotland, which overwhelmingly votes Labour in General Elections. Better Together is more or less a Labour front and any independence vote will look like a Labour failure, especially as around a third of Scottish Labour voters have decamped to the “Yes” side (although the number has fallen since Gordon Brown intervened, a man apparently still popular amongst Scottish Labour voters). Indeed it seems to me that despite Labour having 40 safe seats in the country the Westminster Labour party have only really started paying attention to the vote since the shock YouGov poll last week, a ridiculous display of complacency on their part. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/784 "2014-09-16T10:50:14Z")
[Anonymous leak bombshell makes the last two days before the vote even more interesting](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098624/SNP-Government-planning-half-a-billion-pounds-of-NHS-cutbacks-leaked-dossier-reveals.html). ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/785 "2014-09-16T10:54:18Z")
> **[Cameron, Clegg and Miliband pledge to keep higher spending for Scots](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2757554/Cameron-Clegg-Miliband-pledge-higher-spending-Scotland-rule-English-parliament-Tory-MPs-say-no-Scottish-Chancellor-EVER.html)** > > The three UK party leaders agreed a joint declaration that the Scottish Parliament will be given new powers – but still keep its ‘Barnet formula’ which transfers more cash to Scotland than England. What are the Daily Fail up to? They’ve spent the last month telling the Scots that they’d starve if they left. Now they’re telling the English that if Scotland stays, we’ll get fucked over. Is it a ploy? “Hey Scotland, you hate the English, you can fuck’em them over by staying!”. Is this what we’ve been reduced to? It really is starting to feel like I’m a kid watching my parents have a really nasty divorce. But one thing is clear, if the shit in this story is even vaguely true, it’s going to get real ugly here whether we split or not. Please someone tell me that this shit of a paper is just pulling its usual bollocks, but Labour has used its Scottish MPs to vote in shit before, so this con sounds dangerously plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/786 "2014-09-16T11:00:39Z")
Trust me, everything the Daily Mail publishes is bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/787 "2014-09-16T11:02:38Z")
How is their position contradictory? If Scotland gets more powers then the situation in England with respect to Westminster becomes even more ridiculous. The likes of Yorkshire have a greater population than Scotland, a larger economy than Wales, and feel an even greater democratic deficit than both of them, and this will only increase with the transfer of more powers to the Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish parliaments/assemblies. Any transfer of powers to Scotland _must_ be accompanied by regional devolution within England. The South East is not England, and England is not the South East. Greater Manchester, Yorkshire, Merseyside, the South West, and Midlands are all being fucked over too and something needs to change. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/788 "2014-09-16T11:17:06Z")
I am convinced that whatever happens on Thursday there’s going to be a wave of decentralisation throughout the UK and England - it’s that or (if Scotland stays) another referendum in a generation’s time. I would strongly favour a federalisation (of sorts) through England rather than a single English Parliament. England’s just too vast for such a thing to work within the Union. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/789 "2014-09-16T11:45:13Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > How is their position contradictory? If Scotland gets more powers then the situation in England with respect to Westminster becomes even more ridiculous. The likes of Yorkshire have a greater population than Scotland, a larger economy than Wales, and feel an even greater democratic deficit than both of them, and this will only increase with the transfer of more powers to the Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish parliaments/assemblies. > > Any transfer of powers to Scotland _must_ be accompanied by regional devolution within England. The South East is not England, and England is not the South East. Greater Manchester, Yorkshire, Merseyside, the South West, and Midlands are all being fucked over too and something needs to change. Agreed, English political makeup reminds me of the Italian regions, all Italian, but with strong regional loyalties. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/790 "2014-09-16T12:04:02Z")
Sure, an independent Scotland will create pressure for decentralisation within England. But none of the parties has got a plan for that yet and previous initiatives have little to recommend them. The idea of rambunctious city mayors and powerful regional assemblies does not seem to appeal to the voters. Mainly because we all know how dreadful our local councils can be with everything decided in the dominant parties club or local lodge. You end up with something like Rotherham. It would need a cunning plan otherwise it would end up with just another layer of venal politicians on fat salaries paid out of extra taxes. The Scots seem to happy enough with their Parliament, but that might be related to the fact that they have have enjoyed the last decade being bribed with social services, university fees, etc on the back of Barnett formula by which a block grant of UK tax revenue is allocated to the Scottish Parliament to pay for the public services. They would not normally be able to afford that. This formula needs to be reviewed, it is too favourable to the devolved regions and, of course, the devolved Assemblies and Scottish Parliament, were keen to see it continue because it is a consistent income stream and calculated such that they get a subsidy. If the Scots vote for independence, the Barnett forlmula will be no longer relevant and they will live and die by Scotlands own ability to tax and spend and manage the vagaries of the economy. There would be no buffer and, of course, they would have to cover the cost of national expenses like defence with no economies of scale. If the English regions were also decentralised, a new formula would have to be agreed dividing tax income and allocating part of it to each region. We would see a political bunfight over the budget and lots of competing claims for special treatment. > **[Scottish independence: Barnett formula change not planned, says Cameron](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25435861)** > > A change to the Barnett formula is "not on the horizon", according to Prime Minister David Cameron. > **[Barnett formula](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula)** > > The Barnett formula is a mechanism used by the Treasury in the United Kingdom to automatically adjust the amounts of public expenditure allocated to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales to reflect changes in spending levels allocated to public services in England, Scotland and Wales, as appropriate. The formula applies to a large proportion, but not the whole, of the devolved governments' budgets − in 2013–14 it applied to about 85% of the Scottish Parliament's total budget. > The formula is nam... Will decentralisation within the UK becoming an issue for the next election? I have my doubts. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/791 "2014-09-16T13:26:22Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Sure, an independent Scotland will create pressure for decentralisation within England. > > But none of the parties has got a plan for that yet and previous initiatives have little to recommend them. The idea of rambunctious city mayors and powerful regional assemblies does not seem to appeal to the voters. Mainly because we all know how dreadful our local councils can be with everything decided in the dominant parties club or local lodge. You end up with something like Rotherham. > > It would need a cunning plan otherwise it would end up with just another layer of venal politicians on fat salaries paid out of extra taxes. And the UK deserves a modern political system as I Scotland. Local government here is elected by a proportional rather than first past the post basis ensuring that it is very difficult to have one party rotten burgh. Cede all but international powers to Scotland. Elect an English parliament of 400 elected by PR on a regional basis in place of the commons and a hundred seat senate elected by FTP in large constituencies throughout the UK. Simple. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/792 "2014-09-16T13:31:11Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > The Scots seem to happy enough with their Parliament, but that might be related to the fact that they have have enjoyed the last decade being bribed with social services, university fees, etc on the back of Barnett formula by which a block grant of UK tax revenue is allocated to the Scottish Parliament to pay for the public services. They would not normally be able to afford that. This formula needs to be reviewed, it is too favourable to the devolved regions and, of course, the devolved Assemblies and Scottish Parliament, were keen to see it continue because it is a consistent income stream and calculated such that they get a subsidy. > > If the Scots vote for independence, the Barnett forlmula will be no longer relevant and they will live and die by Scotlands own ability to tax and spend and manage the vagaries of the economy. There would be no buffer and, of course, they would have to cover the cost of national expenses like defence with no economies of scale. > > If the English regions were also decentralised, a new formula would have to be agreed dividing tax income and allocating part of it to each region. We would see a political bunfight over the budget and lots of competing claims for special treatment. > > [Scottish independence: Barnett formula change not planned, says Cameron - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25435861) > > [Barnett formula - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula) > > Will decentralisation within the UK becoming an issue for the next election? I have my doubts. Have you not read today’s news. Absolute guarantee that the Barnett formula will continue. It is fair in that accidentally it results in an almost identical amount that would be available to Scotland if all oil taxes returned to Scotland; few people complain about the similar excess provided to London! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/793 "2014-09-16T13:37:11Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > [Anonymous leak bombshell makes the last two days before the vote even more interesting](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098624/SNP-Government-planning-half-a-billion-pounds-of-NHS-cutbacks-leaked-dossier-reveals.html). 450 million pounds isn’t really _that_ much; it’s less than a 5% cutback. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/794 "2014-09-16T13:44:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 450 million pounds isn’t really _that_ much; it’s less than a 5% cutback. That’s quite a lot in the context of delivering health services. But the point is that Salmond has been campaigning strongly on “Only Independence can save the NHS” e.g. evil Westminster will slash the budgets while noble Scotland will keep the money flowing. If the SNP are planning cuts right now that not only undercuts his argument but also makes him out to be a bit of a liar. So it’s quite a big deal in that context. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/795 "2014-09-16T13:46:01Z")
Ah. Fair enough. I can’t help but wonder: is there a similar campaign south of the border to kick Scotland out of the union if the referendum fails? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/796 "2014-09-16T13:47:17Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > 450 million pounds isn’t really that much; it’s less than a 5% cutback. The leaked documents state the budget pressure is due to Scottish Government policies, and in fact the NHS and its budget is completely devolved in Scotland. This completely destroys a central tenet of the SNP’s campaign: that the only way to “save” the Scottish NHS is to vote for independence. In reality, they are themselves proposing large cuts to the health service in Scotland in private whilst campaigning on “saving” the health service, whereas the supposedly evil Tories have increased health care spending in England and Wales whilst facing even larger budgetary pressures. Further, the Scottish Government has the power to vary income tax rates by up to 3% under the Scotland Act 1998. The Treasury estimated back in 2010 that a 1% increase in the rate would raise an extra £400 million in revenue in Scotland annually, almost wiping out the budget shortfall. The SNP never used this power, and in fact allowed it to lapse. Lastly, it along with the IFS report on the SNP’s NHS claims last week also puts the SNP on the defensive in the crucial final few days of campaigning. [Meanwhile, BetFair are so confident of a no vote they’ve started paying out early](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/leisure/11098848/Betfair-pays-out-early-on-Scottish-independence-No-vote.html). ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/797 "2014-09-16T14:05:00Z")
[Here](http://www.salon.com/2014/09/16/this_map_shows_all_the_countries_that_have_declared_their_independence_from_the_united_kingdom/)’s a map of all the countries that have declared independence from the UK. Clearly Brits are not satisfied with just their own island. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/798 "2014-09-16T14:08:53Z")
Are you trying to make a point? ETA: Britain is cold and wet. I love _Britons_ but I couldn’t give a fuck about the island. Exporting British ideas and culture to warm, sunny places might be the greatest advancement in human history (leaving aside the part about doing it with gunboats and such). And I’m doing my bit, here in Florida. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/799 "2014-09-16T14:41:13Z")
The NHS story has produced a new irregular verb: They _slash the NHS_. We _make efficiency savings to protect frontline services._ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/800 "2014-09-16T14:45:29Z")
You (plural) kick old ladies into the street to die. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=41)