# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/841 "2014-09-17T15:13:48Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > [Pretty amazing speech by Gordon Brown in defence of the Union](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J39bBV7CBJk). Why wasn’t Brown more prominent in Better Together from the start? Since his intervention the number of Scottish Labour voters voting for independence has dropped from 35% to 25%! I agree, Gordon Brown has huge standing in Scotland and that speech was full of passion and pride. It is difficult to dismiss his message given that he managed the UK economy as Chancellor of the Exchequer and served as Prime Minister. That is quite some authority. It will resonate with many voters, particularly the Labour voters. One of the best speeches I have heard so far, He may yet save the UK. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/842 "2014-09-17T15:22:46Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > An independent Scotland that cannot defend itself and cares little for NATO, is content to undemine the capability of the UK yet at the same time depends on both the UK and NATO to guarantee its security and that of the sea lanes it depends on for trade. At least the rUK will be able to leave the fighting over fish with Iceland and the Faroe Islands to Scotland! ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/843 "2014-09-17T15:26:29Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Some people seem to imagine that nuclear warheads can be simply put in the back of a lorry and driven to England. I’d like to point out that this is actually a regular occurrence. It’s a big armoured lorry with heavy-duty escort, but that’s how they are transported between the Atomic Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston and Coulport. Here’s the details > **[Defence Nuclear Material Transport Operations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Nuclear_Material_Transport_Operations#Nuclear_weapon_transport_by_road)** > > Defence Nuclear Material Transport Operations refer to the movements of military Defence Nuclear Materials (DNM) within, to and from the United Kingdom. Defence Nuclear Material Transport Operations are also known as DNM Transportation; Defence Nuclear Material in transit; Nuclear movements; and DNM movements. > The Special Escort Group of the Ministry of Defence Police, SEG (MDP), escort the nuclear materials and remain on standby during their transit. Immediate Response Forces (IRF) are embedde... and here’s a video (which, unusually for Youtube, has a decent soundtrack) [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tCx-8PAiK8Q/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AG-AoAC8AGKAgwIABABGGUgRChRMA8=&rs=AOn4CLD9Fj5OZz0-4J-BpY_0G93xnw6uJg "UK nuclear weapons convoy") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCx-8PAiK8Q) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/844 "2014-09-17T15:27:48Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > [Pretty amazing speech by Gordon Brown in defence of the Union](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J39bBV7CBJk). Why wasn’t Brown more prominent in Better Together from the start? Since his intervention the number of Scottish Labour voters voting for independence has dropped from 35% to 25%! Where was _that_ Gordon when he was PM? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/845 "2014-09-17T15:39:33Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Not that big a deal? Have you seen the cost estimates? > > An independent Scotland that cannot defend itself and cares little for NATO, is content to undemine the capability of the UK yet at the same time depends on both the UK and NATO to guarantee its security and that of the sea lanes it depends on for trade. > > What sort of independence is that? > > Who is going to take this freeloading nation with an over inflated ego seriously? > > If the independence vote passes, there will very quickly be a reality check and all the voices that have hitherto been quiet as the Scots steadily dilberate the nuances of their identity will make their views known. That may come as a rude awakening after all those months of ego massage. > > It is cold, bad world out there full of threats and dangers. Deals have to be done and small countries have often have very few cards to play. Such a shame that Ireland was invaded by Russia because it was not a NATO member. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/846 "2014-09-17T15:42:26Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Lol! > > Tell anyone from Ireland that they have been thriving for the past six years. I was talking about lack of NATO membership, not economics. How about addressing that? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/847 "2014-09-17T15:42:32Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > [Pretty amazing speech by Gordon Brown in defence of the Union](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J39bBV7CBJk). Why wasn’t Brown more prominent in Better Together from the start? Since his intervention the number of Scottish Labour voters voting for independence has dropped from 35% to 25%! Thanks for this. Hope he talks himself hoarse between now and tomorrow night. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/848 "2014-09-17T15:47:35Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > There will clearly be some negotiation to be done between an independent Scotland, the UK, NATO and the EU. > > Scotland will sign some kind of leasing deal for the nuke bases. > > As it is, they cost more than the projected Scottish defence budget to run. > > There is a lot of work to be done to decide what sort of armed forces Scotland can afford. > > Even if it did get a proportion of the hardware proportunate to its populatation the UK armed forces are organised nationwide, there is no easy way to move bases around. Military hardware needs a big support infrastructure and there are no training facilities in Scotland. > > Both the UK and Scotland need to look at this in detail. I suspect when the costs become clear sore me sort of special defence treaty will be negotiated which allows some kind of compromise. > > Some people seem to imagine that nuclear warheads can be simply put in the back of a lorry and driven to England. There are some huge costs involved and Scotland has no skills to deal with this. > > Defence is only one area that has to looked at, many parts of UK government are located in Scotland or England and Wales and they have to be split and moved. > > Same is true of the private sector, all companies are going to have assess their exposure to Scotlands economic prospects. > > All this is a huge amount of work and it will inevitably cost money. I am sure some divorces are very straightforward, easy and fair in the best of all possible worlds. But this is not the best of all worlds and I am not confident this is likely to be at all smooth. > > These are huge problems and it being complacent and even flippant about it does not mean the problem will go away. That is to behave like some salesman who sells some wonderful product, confident they they will never be involved in the delivery when reality clearly falls short of the dream. > > I think Salmond will disappear from the political scene after this and hand his poison chalice on to others. Cameron won’t be far behind. What is it about Scotland that allows you to assume that independence will be disastrous? Every other separation or independence I can think of (of which there have been many in Europe over the past century) has been preceded by harbingers of doom, then in the real world have proceeded fairly quietly and with no real disasters. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/849 "2014-09-17T15:48:56Z")
A few people in the former Yugoslavia might differ. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/850 "2014-09-17T15:56:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A few people in the former Yugoslavia might differ. Well, if we have a decades long internecine war along the border, I suspect that we too may suffer! ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/851 "2014-09-17T16:27:22Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Very interesting article here about why a yes campaigner switched to no: [Ewan Morrison – YES: Why I Joined Yes and Why I Changed to No | wakeupscotland](http://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/ewan-morrison-yes-why-i-joined-yes-and-why-i-changed-to-no/) Reading that article, it just occurred (or coalesced) to me, and it may be just me (and probably is) but there seems to be much similarity to the “Yes” for independence campaign and the Obama campaign in 2008: “Yes we can! Hope and Change! If you like your \_\_\_\_\_\_ , you can keep it. Period.” In other words, heavy on rhetoric and short on substance/details. (think of the good deal the “Yes” campaign could have gotten on all the leftover Democratic campaign signs and banners and buttons) And if the “Yes” vote carries the day, the UK may play the part of the Republicans to iScotland’s being the Democratic Party; well, okay, the UK **couldn’t** be as Republican Partyish as the Republican Party is. Still, the devil is in the details in negotiations & agreements as has been pointed out, the UK will, as is its duty, think of itself first. And it’s not just the UK, what about agreements with every other country in the world? I suppose the current ones can serve as a template but who’s to say every/any other country might not want better terms with the smaller iScotland than they had with with the larger UK? Then again, what do I know. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/852 "2014-09-17T16:43:26Z")
Not a great deal, apparently. > [@Pjen](#): > > Every other separation or independence I can think of (of which there have been many in Europe over the past century) has been preceded by harbingers of doom, then in the real world have proceeded fairly quietly and with no real disasters. Other than Cyprus, Palestine, Ireland, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/853 "2014-09-17T16:52:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not a great deal, apparently. > > Other than Cyprus, Palestine, Ireland, etc.? As with Yugoslavia. If it comes to war “we’re all doomed”. Every negotiated independence has been relatively uneventful. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/854 "2014-09-17T16:53:41Z")
There have been a few things happening in Ukraine lately too, come to think of it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/855 "2014-09-17T16:55:05Z")
My point is just that every state is unique and every such comparison is silly. Not as silly as a comparison to the 2008 US election, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/856 "2014-09-17T17:46:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There have been a few things happening in Ukraine lately too, come to think of it. If rUK invaded Faslane there might be some similarity with the Ukraine. Every peaceful separation has been boring and eventually beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/857 "2014-09-17T19:01:34Z")
No need to invade Faslane. They’re already there. Now, how are you going to get them _out_? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/858 "2014-09-17T19:10:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No need to invade Faslane. They’re already there. Now, how are you going to get them _out_? 😉 The US might have to step in and repossess the missiles in that case 😉 . The warheads themselves are UK manufacture, but the Trident D-5 missiles are only leased. It could be quite the kerfuffle. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/859 "2014-09-17T19:17:40Z")
The Queen and the Scottish vote: [http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/17/world/europe/scotland-queen-vote-foster/index.html?hpt=hp\_t1](http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/17/world/europe/scotland-queen-vote-foster/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/860 "2014-09-17T21:16:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If rUK invaded Faslane there might be some similarity with the Ukraine. Every peaceful separation has been boring and eventually beneficial. So, peaceful separations are peaceful and all the others don’t count. That seems like some sort of rhetorical fallacy that I can’t put my finger on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=44)