# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1161 "2014-09-24T09:38:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You rigidity continues to amaze me. > > The UK has a coalition government and part of the agreement is that any legislation entered into that was not in the original agreement must have support of both coalition partners. The LibDems have a lock on whether any legislation to change the voting in the Commons was a Government Bill or not.There is no way that the Conservatives could actually raise enough votes to pass such legislation in the remaining six months, or whether they would attempt such a partisan action alone. Not to mention the possibility that The Lords would delay it easily if the Labour, LibDem, Crossbench majority there wanted to. > > Scotland did not vote against change; it voted against independence. The debate in the Scotish Parliament yesterday showed all parties making plans for a further serious devolution of powers from Westminster to Holyrood. The feeling of the Scottish people is that further devolution is desirable- no-one has said that the status quo is desirable. > > The referendum was based on the principle that it would decide whether full independence should occur, leaving open the question of further devolution (which has been proposed since the Calman commission from 2007. There was no proposal to maintain the status quo in the agreement, and the Vow given by the party leaders reinforced to case for immediate and unconditional devolution of further powers to Scotland. Every party in Scotland and all major parties in England (even the Conservatives) have stated that further devolution will follow without being tied to English votes for English matters. > > Your view on what a Government minister in his capacity as a member of the coalition should do is immaterial. The facts are otherwise than you believe. When both of the options result in change you are not voting for change. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1162 "2014-09-24T09:50:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You rigidity continues to amaze me. Pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1163 "2014-09-24T10:08:10Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes: On the contrary, I am totally flexible pointing out a range of possibilities from log jam to total independence depending on the situation- political, social, financial. etc. Steophan merely repeats what the legal and current situation is. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1164 "2014-09-24T10:11:14Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > When both of the options result in change you are not voting for change. What? That does not follow. If you are deciding between Change Set 1 and Change Set 2, you are voting for change. There was no suggestion that the status quo was being voted for. Change has been on the cards since Calman was set up in 2007. Further devolution has been planned for over five years. If anything the referendum delayed it. Even before the Vow it was expected that further powers would be devolved in the next year or so. Both options on the referendum were for change, the choice was how much change. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1165 "2014-09-24T10:45:22Z")
Does “devo-max” have a definition that is generally accepted by everyone? Or is the UK looking forward to months of arguments along the lines of “that isn’t devo-max!” vs. “yes, it is!”? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1166 "2014-09-24T11:09:46Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Does “devo-max” have a definition that is generally accepted by everyone? Or is the UK looking forward to months of arguments along the lines of “that isn’t devo-max!” vs. “yes, it is!”? There is the Calman Report: > **[Commission on Scottish Devolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Scottish_Devolution)** > > Charles III > William, Duke of Rothesay > Swinney government > The Rt Hon John Swinney MSP The main conclusions and recommendations are: that devolution has been a success, and is here to stay that the Scottish Parliament should have substantially greater control over the raising of the revenues that make up the Scottish budget, primarily through sharing with the UK Parliament responsibility for setting income tax rates (although the number of rates, the differences between them, eligibility and so on should remain wholly UK responsibilities) and through devolution of some smaller taxes (Air Passenger Duty, Landfill Tax, the Aggregates Levy and Stamp Duty Land Tax) that the UK should reduce income tax rates in Scotland by 10p (on the basic and higher rates), and reduce the block grant by a corresponding amount, thus requiring the Scottish Parliament to make a tax decision (i.e. whether to restore the 10p or to set a Scottish rate that is higher or lower than the rate in the rest of the UK) that the reduced block grant should continue to be calculated through the Barnett formula in the short term, but that a UK-wide needs assessment should replace it in the longer term that the Scottish Government should have new borrowing powers to cover capital projects, as well as possibly enhanced access to short-term borrowing that responsibility for the regulation of airguns, the administration of elections, drink-driving limits and the national speed limit should be devolved that the regulation of health professions and corporate insolvency, currently largely reserved, should be fully reserved; and that there should be single UK definitions of “charity” and “charitable purposes” greater involvement of Scottish Ministers in key decisions and appointments relating to UK bodies such as the BBC, the Crown Estate and the Health and Safety Executive that there should be better inter-parliamentary dialogue and communication, including through removing barriers to joint working of committees, having Scottish Ministers attending UK Parliament committees and UK Ministers attending the Scottish Parliament (including to outline the implications of the annual Queen’s Speech), and establishing a joint liaison committee enhancement of the Joint Ministerial Committee (JMC) structure, including by creation of new sub-committees, and the production of an annual report development of the existing Sewel Convention, including through entrenchment in Westminster standing orders, Scottish MPs being represented on committees scrutinising Bills that engage the Convention, and better communication between the Parliaments, including on “legislative consent motions” under the Convention the creation of a new mechanism to enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate on reserved matters with the UK Parliament’s consent (by order) enhanced procedures for Scottish Parliamentary scrutiny of Bills, including splitting the existing Stage 3 into two stages, and creating a presumption that amendments at Stage 3 to introduce substantial new provisions will be referred back to committee a requirement that anyone introducing a Bill (not just a Minister) needs to state that the Bill is within the Parliament’s legislative competence, and give reasons for that view. The three UK parties have proposals that hover around those. The Vow said that the draft report on the joint recommendations will be published on St Andrew’s Day- 30th November and that there will be a Cmnd document published by the government by Burns Night 25th January. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1167 "2014-09-24T11:22:40Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Does “devo-max” have a definition that is generally accepted by everyone? Or is the UK looking forward to months of arguments along the lines of “that isn’t devo-max!” vs. “yes, it is!”? The three major parties in the UK Parliament have different proposals and they have to take into account the likely effect on the constitution of the rest of the UK…and in particular the implications for their party’s prospects in next years General Election. The SNP, as you might expect, have their own Scot-centric interpretation and they really don’t care about the effect it has on the rest of the UK. The only consensus is a commitment to change. There will, therefore be a something of a bun fight over this in the run up to May 2015 election and the Scots will ensure the issue is not buried. I really don’t like the idea of a major constitutional settlement for the UK being subject to the short term priorities of party election tactics. It has to be thought through properly and it is not a trivial exercise. I expect there will be some temporary solution that answers the commitments made during the independence vote and then some long term cross party constitutional commission to look deeply into the issue and work out a cunning plan. This sort of constitutional issue has been easily kicked into the long grass in the past because the nuances of the argument are pretty much lost on the electorate who tend to be more interested on voting on bread and butter issues. The independence vote raised the profile of the UK constitution as an political issue and I daresay the Scots will be intent on keeping it at the top of the agenda. I don’t see any consensus amongst the political parties yet and there are differences of opinion within each party, except the SNP, of course. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1168 "2014-09-24T11:36:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What? That does not follow. If you are deciding between Change Set 1 and Change Set 2, you are voting for change. There was no suggestion that the status quo was being voted for. > > Change has been on the cards since Calman was set up in 2007. Further devolution has been planned for over five years. If anything the referendum delayed it. Even before the Vow it was expected that further powers would be devolved in the next year or so. > > Both options on the referendum were for change, the choice was how much change. No because change isn’t an option to be voted on. What is being voted on is the particular type of change. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1169 "2014-09-24T11:40:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There is the Calman Report: > > [Commission on Scottish Devolution - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Scottish_Devolution) > > The main conclusions and recommendations are: > > that devolution has been a success, and is here to stay > that the Scottish Parliament should have substantially greater control over the raising of the revenues that make up the Scottish budget, primarily through sharing with the UK Parliament responsibility for setting income tax rates (although the number of rates, the differences between them, eligibility and so on should remain wholly UK responsibilities) and through devolution of some smaller taxes (Air Passenger Duty, Landfill Tax, the Aggregates Levy and Stamp Duty Land Tax) > that the UK should reduce income tax rates in Scotland by 10p (on the basic and higher rates), and reduce the block grant by a corresponding amount, thus requiring the Scottish Parliament to make a tax decision (i.e. whether to restore the 10p or to set a Scottish rate that is higher or lower than the rate in the rest of the UK) > that the reduced block grant should continue to be calculated through the Barnett formula in the short term, but that a UK-wide needs assessment should replace it in the longer term > that the Scottish Government should have new borrowing powers to cover capital projects, as well as possibly enhanced access to short-term borrowing > that responsibility for the regulation of airguns, the administration of elections, drink-driving limits and the national speed limit should be devolved > that the regulation of health professions and corporate insolvency, currently largely reserved, should be fully reserved; and that there should be single UK definitions of “charity” and “charitable purposes” > greater involvement of Scottish Ministers in key decisions and appointments relating to UK bodies such as the BBC, the Crown Estate and the Health and Safety Executive > that there should be better inter-parliamentary dialogue and communication, including through removing barriers to joint working of committees, having Scottish Ministers attending UK Parliament committees and UK Ministers attending the Scottish Parliament (including to outline the implications of the annual Queen’s Speech), and establishing a joint liaison committee > enhancement of the Joint Ministerial Committee (JMC) structure, including by creation of new sub-committees, and the production of an annual report > development of the existing Sewel Convention, including through entrenchment in Westminster standing orders, Scottish MPs being represented on committees scrutinising Bills that engage the Convention, and better communication between the Parliaments, including on “legislative consent motions” under the Convention > the creation of a new mechanism to enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate on reserved matters with the UK Parliament’s consent (by order) > enhanced procedures for Scottish Parliamentary scrutiny of Bills, including splitting the existing Stage 3 into two stages, and creating a presumption that amendments at Stage 3 to introduce substantial new provisions will be referred back to committee > a requirement that anyone introducing a Bill (not just a Minister) needs to state that the Bill is within the Parliament’s legislative competence, and give reasons for that view. > > The three UK parties have proposals that hover around those. The Vow said that the draft report on the joint recommendations will be published on St Andrew’s Day- 30th November and that there will be a Cmnd document published by the government by Burns Night 25th January. Thanks for posting this. Interesting to read and I agree with much of it - apart from the yet unproven claim that devolution has been a success. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1170 "2014-09-24T12:16:30Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Thanks for posting this. Interesting to read and I agree with much of it - apart from the yet unproven claim that devolution has been a success. From a personal point of view Devolution has been very successful, and I think that most Scots would agree with that. In just about every way that government impinges on citizens, matters are better here than in England. Our health service has not been meddled with. We have free eye tests and NHS dental services at moderate prices. Free prescriptions. Free elder care if one is placed in a home for medical reasons. Our nurses are paid more. Our schools are well ordered and more parent friendly than English schools (I can take my children out of school for extra days to go to Florida next month with no threat of a fine!) We love and respect our exam system which is largely free of political meddling. There is no pressure to get children into supposedly good schools. No private water companies and water charges are part of Council Tax. Not to mention the right to roam on all land (footpaths not necessary), frozen Council Tax, Sunday 24 hour shopping and so on. It feels like a different country! ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1171 "2014-09-24T12:25:58Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > As the baby Boomers replace the older cohort, even though they are marginally NO, they still produce a majority for independence as the younger still cohorts are disproportionately YES. It does not require the Boomers to die first. **Pjen** , what are you talking about? There was a single cohort that voted yes: the 25-34 demographic, and they voted yes by 55% to 45%. Every other demographic in Scotland voted no, including the youngest demographic. The young did not disproportionately vote “Yes” at all. [Look at YouGov’s latest figures and analysis of how people voted, released yesterday, for instance](https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/e1yphtuis8/Final_Prediction_140918_Final_Website.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1172 "2014-09-24T12:28:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Steophan merely repeats what the legal and current situation is. Only because you keep ignoring them, in favour of assuming that a vow by Gordon Brown is somehow binding on the UK electorate and any future government it elects. You constantly post your speculations and desires as accomplished facts, and ignore what will need to be done to achieve them, and who will need to agree with you for them to be done. Or is it genuinely your opinion that the laws and constitution of the UK are impediments that are best ignored in your quest for Scottish glory? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1173 "2014-09-24T12:30:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Our schools are well ordered and more parent friendly than English schools (I can take my children out of school for extra days to go to Florida next month with no threat of a fine!) That is hardly a good thing! Although given the quality of your arguments here, I can see why you wouldn’t be in favour of education. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1174 "2014-09-24T12:38:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > From a personal point of view Devolution has been very successful, and I think that most Scots would agree with that. In just about every way that government impinges on citizens, matters are better here than in England. Our health service has not been meddled with. We have free eye tests and NHS dental services at moderate prices. Free prescriptions. Free elder care if one is placed in a home for medical reasons. Our nurses are paid more. Our schools are well ordered and more parent friendly than English schools (I can take my children out of school for extra days to go to Florida next month with no threat of a fine!) We love and respect our exam system which is largely free of political meddling. There is no pressure to get children into supposedly good schools. No private water companies and water charges are part of Council Tax. Not to mention the right to roam on all land (footpaths not necessary), frozen Council Tax, Sunday 24 hour shopping and so on. It feels like a different country! Much of what you describe are short term day to day political issues. I look at Devolution as being implemented primarily towards heading off Scottish Nationalism. In this it has been patchy at best, at worst a downright failure. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1175 "2014-09-24T12:43:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In just about every way that government impinges on citizens, matters are better here than in England. Our health service has not been meddled with. Ignoring the rather awkward fact that Scots live, on average, significantly shorter lives than their counterparts in England (2.5 years for males, 2.1 years for females) despite the Scottish health service having to deal with a population a fraction of the size of its English counterpart and one that is significantly less diverse. But, other than failing to keep the population alive as long as in England, I’m sure the Scottish health service is amazing compared to its counterpart south of the border. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1176 "2014-09-24T13:05:21Z")
**Pjen** , as someone with very little stake in the outcome here (I’m a British citizen but haven’t lived there for nearly 20 years and don’t much care how big the union is should I ever return), you are starting to sound a bit unhinged. Like, American talk radio host unhinged. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1177 "2014-09-24T14:06:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Only because you keep ignoring them, in favour of assuming that a vow by Gordon Brown is somehow binding on the UK electorate and any future government it elects. You constantly post your speculations and desires as accomplished facts, and ignore what will need to be done to achieve them, and who will need to agree with you for them to be done. > > Or is it genuinely your opinion that the laws and constitution of the UK are impediments that are best ignored in your quest for Scottish glory? Almost everybody but you believes that such a devolution timetable will be followed. We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1178 "2014-09-24T14:07:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That is hardly a good thing! Although given the quality of your arguments here, I can see why you wouldn’t be in favour of education. I am in favour of education but not in favour of schools being able to criminalise parental behaviour by a mere whim of the headteacher. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1179 "2014-09-24T14:08:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That is hardly a good thing! Although given the quality of your arguments here, I can see why you wouldn’t be in favour of education. This looks quite a bit like a personal attack. Refrain from this. No warning issued. RickJay Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1180 "2014-09-24T14:12:47Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Ignoring the rather awkward fact that Scots live, on average, significantly shorter lives than their counterparts in England (2.5 years for males, 2.1 years for females) despite the Scottish health service having to deal with a population a fraction of the size of its English counterpart and one that is significantly less diverse. But, other than failing to keep the population alive as long as in England, I’m sure the Scottish health service is amazing compared to its counterpart south of the border. Scottish longevity is based on factors out with the health service- historic levels of poor diet, smoking, drinking and possibly genetics. On illness measures the Scottish health service is equivalent to the English one, just having a different management stricture. It also lacks the generalised management by bullying that is prevalent south of the border and pays staff better. At least people can access NHS dentistry and do not have to choose medication by what they can afford. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=60)