# Whither Scotland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261 "2014-09-02T16:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1181 "2014-09-24T14:14:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Pjen** , as someone with very little stake in the outcome here (I’m a British citizen but haven’t lived there for nearly 20 years and don’t much care how big the union is should I ever return), you are starting to sound a bit unhinged. Like, American talk radio host unhinged. Please specify what is irrational about what I have posted. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1182 "2014-09-24T14:18:41Z")
You have been casting the referendum results as a victory for the “yes” campaign since they came out. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1183 "2014-09-24T14:36:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Almost everybody but you believes that such a devolution timetable will be followed. We shall see. I’ve never said I don’t believe it will be followed, in fact I’ve repeatedly said I think it will, or at least something close to it. What I’m disagreeing with is your assertions that it _must_ be followed, and explaining that UK law doesn’t permit such a binding vow. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1184 "2014-09-24T14:38:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am in favour of education but not in favour of schools being able to criminalise parental behaviour by a mere whim of the headteacher. It’s not a whim of the headteacher, it’s the “whim” of the elected government, who have correctly decided that a child’s education is more important than going on holiday when they should be at school. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1185 "2014-09-24T14:42:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s not a whim of the headteacher, it’s the “whim” of the elected government, who have correctly decided that a child’s education is more important than going on holiday when they should be at school. On the other hand, travel is the best education there is so shame on a teacher who denies that to a child. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1186 "2014-09-24T14:46:05Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Ignoring the rather awkward fact that Scots live, on average, significantly shorter lives than their counterparts in England (2.5 years for males, 2.1 years for females) despite the Scottish health service having to deal with a population a fraction of the size of its English counterpart and one that is significantly less diverse. But, other than failing to keep the population alive as long as in England, I’m sure the Scottish health service is amazing compared to its counterpart south of the border. A large part of the discrepancy is down to the [Glasgow effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_effect), which is well documented, if largely unexplained. _It is as if a malign vapour rises from the Clyde at night and settles in the lungs of sleeping Glaswegians_ ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1187 "2014-09-24T14:49:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > From a personal point of view Devolution has been very successful, and I think that most Scots would agree with that. In just about every way that government impinges on citizens, matters are better here than in England. Our health service has not been meddled with. We have free eye tests and NHS dental services at moderate prices. Free prescriptions. Free elder care if one is placed in a home for medical reasons. Our nurses are paid more. Our schools are well ordered and more parent friendly than English schools (I can take my children out of school for extra days to go to Florida next month with no threat of a fine!) We love and respect our exam system which is largely free of political meddling. There is no pressure to get children into supposedly good schools. No private water companies and water charges are part of Council Tax. Not to mention the right to roam on all land (footpaths not necessary), frozen Council Tax, Sunday 24 hour shopping and so on. It feels like a different country! And how much of the price tag associated with those items is paid for by a subsidy from the UK tax payer? The outdated Barnett formula needs to be modified so the Scots pay their fair share. This issue has been put off for a long time now. Devolution costs money and so far the rest of the UK, and England in particular, has been footing the bill for all these initiatives. I expect this to become a keenly debated point now that the independence issue has been settled. It has been fudged for too long while the Scots have been deliberating about independence. There are many in the rest of the UK that would like those benefits and I don’t think anyone really believes they have been gained because the Scots are in any way more astute at managing their economy than the rest of the UK. I would like to see how the SNP fares at the next election if they used some of the tax raising powers the Scots Parliament already has and starts increasing taxes to pay for these social benefits. Instead of the Barnett subsidy a Tartan Tax? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1188 "2014-09-24T14:52:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You have been casting the referendum results as a victory for the “yes” campaign since they came out. My original aim was Devo max (check back) so I am quite pleased with the outcome. I had moved from being an independence sceptic to supporter over the campaign as I became offended by the Better Together negativity. Scotland was never choosing between the status quo and Independence. The alternative was always further devolution; the last minute panic by the Better Together and the UU parties merely makes it easier (as Alex Salmond said) to hold Cameron’s feet to the fire. Devolution of many more powers is on the way, and it looks like the Barnett formula is guaranteed for several more years. It is worth pointing out that the Labour leader in Scotland yesterday threatened Westminster with severe disruption if either devolution or the Guarantee on the Barnett formula was reneged upon; the whole chamber applauded. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1189 "2014-09-24T14:58:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve never said I don’t believe it will be followed, in fact I’ve repeatedly said I think it will, or at least something close to it. What I’m disagreeing with is your assertions that it _must_ be followed, and explaining that UK law doesn’t permit such a binding vow. The constitution is so lax that it does not require any future government to even present itself for re-election. That is guaranteed by protocol. Only last week it was being discussed whether next year’s election should be postponed. It is possible to ‘win’ any argument in British politics by claiming that one parliament cannot bond a successor and that Parliament is supreme. For instance I could claim that Miliband could take power next May and declare himself Prime Minister for life, stack the Lords with his supporters and cancel future elections. All of that would be allowed by the supremacy of Parliament. So what we must consider is what is possible rather than what is technically legal. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1190 "2014-09-24T15:09:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s not a whim of the headteacher, it’s the “whim” of the elected government, who have correctly decided that a child’s education is more important than going on holiday when they should be at school. That is the English take on what is ‘right’. Up here the elected government believes that parents are heavily involved in such decisions. Additionally we rarely hear up here (in fact almost never) about pupils being suspended en masse for uniform violations or what they are blogging about their school- an almost weekly occurrence in England. Schools do not have Governors here but have Parent Councils that are chosen by all parents when an election is needed, and which has the power to call an all-parent meeting if there are problems over running the school. Such councils are powerful and have a veto over appointment of senior staff and school rules and aims. When a head we had appointed with her word that she would work with our school for five years reneged on that and sought a development post at a larger school for six months, we were able to refuse to take her back after the secondment and to choose a new head. As parents are fully involved in uniform issues they rarely become contentious here. The local academy tried to introduce blazers for all in place of the current hoodies; the parent council voted it down and the Rector will need to introduce it year by year over the next six if she wishes to continue the plan. Parent power! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1191 "2014-09-24T15:17:57Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > And how much of the price tag associated with those items is paid for by a subsidy from the UK tax payer? > > The outdated Barnett formula needs to be modified so the Scots pay their fair share. > > This issue has been put off for a long time now. > > Devolution costs money and so far the rest of the UK, and England in particular, has been footing the bill for all these initiatives. > > I expect this to become a keenly debated point now that the independence issue has been settled. It has been fudged for too long while the Scots have been deliberating about independence. > > There are many in the rest of the UK that would like those benefits and I don’t think anyone really believes they have been gained because the Scots are in any way more astute at managing their economy than the rest of the UK. > > I would like to see how the SNP fares at the next election if they used some of the tax raising powers the Scots Parliament already has and starts increasing taxes to pay for these social benefits. > > Instead of the Barnett subsidy a Tartan Tax? > > :eek: Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were given extra funding because of their demographic and geographic problems. London on the other hand gets the same per head allocation of resources purely because it is the capital. Scotland has an additional claim, moral and political, to extra money because of oil revenues. Morally in that oil from Scottish waters sustained the UK for the past fifty years, and politically because, should Westminster equalise the subvention and send Scotland into penury or high taxes, they will be aware that offending the voters of Scotland sufficiently to encourage five per cent of the population to change their 2014 votes it would result in Independence being claimed in a future referendum or other method of leaving the union. The Barnett formula or something like it is virtually guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1192 "2014-09-24T15:37:29Z")
But London doesn’t have a similar moral claim due to the amount of wealth it generates? What is special about oil revenue? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1193 "2014-09-24T15:46:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That is the English take on what is ‘right’. Up here the elected government believes that parents are heavily involved in such decisions. Additionally we rarely hear up here (in fact almost never) about pupils being suspended en masse for uniform violations or what they are blogging about their school- an almost weekly occurrence in England. Schools do not have Governors here but have Parent Councils that are chosen by all parents when an election is needed, and which has the power to call an all-parent meeting if there are problems over running the school. Such councils are powerful and have a veto over appointment of senior staff and school rules and aims. > When a head we had appointed with her word that she would work with our school for five years reneged on that and sought a development post at a larger school for six months, we were able to refuse to take her back after the secondment and to choose a new head. As parents are fully involved in uniform issues they rarely become contentious here. The local academy tried to introduce blazers for all in place of the current hoodies; the parent council voted it down and the Rector will need to introduce it year by year over the next six if she wishes to continue the plan. Parent power! A population ten times higher means there’s a lot more schools to get these occasional stories from. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1194 "2014-09-24T15:48:30Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > But London doesn’t have a similar moral claim due to the amount of wealth it generates? What is special about oil revenue? London’s tax revenue per head is enormous because of the financial organisations. What it lacks is a moral claim to nationhood and the political likelihood of a vote for independence. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1195 "2014-09-24T15:54:01Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > A population ten times higher means there’s a lot more schools to get these occasional stories from. Find me one story about a Scottish school sending hordes of children home for uniform non compliance, accusing pupils of breaking school rules by blogging or posting on Facebook or disciplining pupils or their parents for reasonable non attendance at school. The one episode (I think in Oban) where a girl was blogging about her school dinners resulted in the bead trying to ban her from posting and being given a roasting by the education officials for exceeding her powers. Oh, and our teachers are paid considerably more than their English counterparts, are respected by all parents and politicians, happy on their work and conditions, and do not seem to feel the need to strike. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1196 "2014-09-24T15:54:42Z")
London’s tax revenue is enormous for all sorts of reasons. London is a major centre for the creative industries, services of all description, is a technology centre, one of the largest tourist destinations in Europe and a centre for business startups. In addition, its sheer population dwarfs that of Scotland. Now, care to answer the question over why Scotland has a moral right to oil revenue but London does not have a moral right to keeping the revenues that it generates, as you claimed earlier. Further, please explain to me why banking is in anyway more morally objectionable to pumping hydrocarbons out of the ground and selling them, as you seem to be implying. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1197 "2014-09-24T15:56:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Oh, and our teachers are paid considerably more than their English counterparts, are respected by all parents and politicians, happy on their work and conditions, and do not seem to feel the need to strike. That’s weird, seeing as my brother and sister in law, both secondary school teachers in the Scottish Borders, were on strike last year. Perhaps the Borders have detached themselves from Scotland proper and decided to join England where teachers are flogged in the streets, pupils have their eyes gouged out for uniform violations, and parents are executed for taking children out of school for family holidays. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1198 "2014-09-24T16:03:07Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > That’s weird, seeing as my brother and sister in law, both secondary school teachers in the Scottish Borders, were on strike last year. Perhaps the Borders have detached themselves from Scotland proper and decided to join England where teachers are flogged in the streets, pupils have their eyes gouged out for uniform violations, and parents are executed for taking children out of school for family holidays. My apologies. Apparently there is a series of strikes over pensions as this article makes clear [http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/scottish-teachers-back-strike-by-9-to-1-margin-1-2860006](http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/scottish-teachers-back-strike-by-9-to-1-margin-1-2860006) But note the paragraph: “The strike was the first teachers had taken part in since UK-wide action in 1985-6 over cuts by the Conservative government under Margaret Thatcher.” So prior to this pension dispute we have been largely strike free for nearly thirty years! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1199 "2014-09-24T16:06:18Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > London’s tax revenue is enormous for all sorts of reasons. London is a major centre for the creative industries, services of all description, is a technology centre, one of the largest tourist destinations in Europe and a centre for business startups. In addition, its sheer population dwarfs that of Scotland. > > Now, care to answer the question over why Scotland has a moral right to oil revenue but London does not have a moral right to keeping the revenues that it generates, as you claimed earlier. Further, please explain to me why banking is in anyway more morally objectionable to pumping hydrocarbons out of the ground and selling them, as you seem to be implying. London might well have a moral claim to it, but little likelihood of achieving independence. Scotland on the other hand is already identifiably a separate nation and has every chance of being accepted as an independent state. London does receive considerably more money from the tax fund than any other area of the country and will probably continue to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261/1200 "2014-09-24T16:12:40Z")
What has independence got to do with anything? The oil revenue was brought up by **filmstar-en** in the context of the Barnett Formula being adjusted, which is obviously tied to staying within the Union. Your own post replying to his didn’t even make reference to independence, but merely asserted a moral claim to extra revenues through the Barnett Formula because the oil is mostly in Scottish water and Scotland has “geographical concerns”. So, apparently your position is that Scotland has a moral right to oil revenue, but London has no moral right to the proceeds of its own revenues, because “independence”? What? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-scotland/697261.md?page=61)