# Whither the "-ly" adverb? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 24, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996 "2017-07-24T02:13:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/1 "2017-07-24T02:13:15Z")
Ok I’m just too darn lazy to search for any related topics, so feel free to float by a link if there is one. In regular, random conversations over the last, say, what, 15? years or so, I hear more and more folks not using the “-ly” adverb as much as I used to hear it, prior to then. Sometimes the media/pop culture can have an influence - Apple’s [“Think Different”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_different) ad campaign back in '97, I feel, had at least some bearing on this. To what extent that bearing had can be endlessly debatable. > [@](#): > > Grammatical correctness (from **wiki** ) > > The grammaticality of “Think different” is disputed. Some say it is not correct in standard English: being a verb, “think” needs to be modified by an adverb, which would be “differently”. On the other hand, standard English has many flat adverbs such as “hard” which lack the characteristic -ly ending of most adverbs (and think hardly means almost the opposite of think hard…). There are also non-standard varieties of English in which “different” would be the normal, adverbial form. > > According to Jobs’s official biography, “Jobs insisted that he wanted ‘different’ to be used as a noun, as in ‘think victory’ or ‘think beauty.’” Jobs also specifically said that “think differently” wouldn’t have the same meaning to him. Also, Jobs wanted to make it sound colloquial, like the phrase “think big.”[13] I guess I’m one of those hold-outs who still uses the “-ly”, but then a couple weeks back, in the following post: > [@What happens to something built on top of ice?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-something-built-on-top-of-ice/790301/8): > > Ok, let’s take the house example. > > If you build it up really skookum and make sure it’s placed **secure** on top of an ice flow, and then, the ice melts, _but then_, the ice starts to freeze up _again_ while the house is sort of in the _middle_ of melting its way downwards (diagonally for some reason), then - that’s really a sticky situation, kind of being in limbo, and I’d really try to avoid that if you can. …you’ll see in the top line I stupidly wrote (and now bolded) “secure” instead of writing “securely”. I didn’t notice this until after the five minute edit window had passed, and was so tempted (because I was so embarrassed/pissed) to just write another post about it anyway, but decided that that’d be being a bit of a nurl, doing that. Recently I wanted to express indignant douchiness with a…what was it…“hnf”?, “hmf”? or something similar to that, and after looking it up I came across the [following.](http://www.wordplays.com/definition/humf) Take note of the definition: > [@](#): > > to carry something awkward Sure, not the expression I was looking for, but manoman that lack of an adverb, was, well, awkward. I suppose I should loosen up a little and accept that -ly adverbs might get more and more phased out gradually, as time passes on, but no way am I buying the example that’s immediately above. Am I the only creature left on earth bemoaning this horror of horrors? ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/2 "2017-07-24T02:32:22Z")
I don’t think -ly is going anywhere soon, but it’s got a hard row to hoe–some adjectives have -ly and some adverbs just sound better before the verb :eek:. Confusing. Your example could read, “…make sure it’s placed, secure, on top of an ice flow,” and I wouldn’t have any problem with it. All Jobs had to do was use a colon, “Think: Different,” or steal **THIMK**. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/3 "2017-07-24T02:54:45Z")
To pile extra layers of confusion on, there are also a great many adjectives ending in -ly that are strictly adjectives and cannot be used as adverbs. friendly, ugly, costly, cowardly, disorderly, ghastly, ghostly, grisly, heavenly, lonely, manly, kindly, orderly, scholarly, surly, many more . . . ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/4 "2017-07-24T03:14:32Z")
I think the argument for why “think different” was correct makes sense. He was using it exactly in the same manner as “think big.” He’s not saying “think in a different manner,” but “think about something [that is] different.” Similarly, the definition you gave appears to be saying that “humf” means “to carry something [that is] awkward,” not “to carry something in an awkward manner.” As for “secure,” I believe you were thinking of “is placed” as a linking verb. Take out the word “placed,” and the sentence is perfectly grammatical. That may be an actual change in the language–that the passive voice does not use an adverb. Though I think it may just be the “placed secure” becoming a thing, as I’ve heard it many times. Secure may be becoming an adverb. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/5 "2017-07-24T03:33:41Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > Your example could read, “…make sure it’s placed, secure, on top of an ice flow,” and I wouldn’t have any problem with it. Yeah that’s definitely more viable. > [@Senegoid](#): > > To pile extra layers of confusion on, there are also a great many adjectives ending in -ly that are strictly adjectives and cannot be used as adverbs. > > friendly, ugly, costly, cowardly, disorderly, ghastly, ghostly, grisly, heavenly, lonely, manly, kindly, orderly, scholarly, surly, many more . . . Ah. Interesting Never crossed my mind. > [@BigT](#): > > As for “secure,” I believe you were thinking of “is placed” as a linking verb. Take out the word “placed,” and the sentence is perfectly grammatical. _That’s_ actually what I should’ve done. > [@BigT](#): > > Secure may be becoming an adverb. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/6 "2017-07-24T05:19:04Z")
It’s an American thing and it started decades ago with dropping the “ly” from really. “That was real quick…” etc. Somewhere on here, many years ago, I complained about this. Too lazy to search. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/7 "2017-07-24T07:37:57Z")
“… Make sure it’s placed secure on top of an ice flow …” I’m going to offer a minority opinion. “Secure” _is_ an adjective and _is_ used correctly. It modifies ‘house’ not ‘placed’ — the meaning is slightly different than if ‘-ly’ were added. Here’s a more obvious example: “The cop beat the punk senseless.” vs. “The cop beat the punk senselessly.” In the first case, the punk became senseless; in the second case, it was the cop whose actions were senseless. In this second example, “senseless” has very different meanings but there are different meanings in your example also! You might place the house with great care (“securely”) but due to circumstances its placement result actually ends up flimsy. OTOH, a seemingly haphazard placement might, due to cleverness or luck, result in the house being “secure.” Unlike “punk senseless” we don’t have the adjective explicitly adjacent to the noun it modifies, but an elision is implied: “placed (so that it was) secure.” ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/8 "2017-07-24T11:27:25Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > To pile extra layers of confusion on, there are also a great many adjectives ending in -ly that are strictly adjectives and cannot be used as adverbs. > > friendly, ugly, costly, cowardly, disorderly, ghastly, ghostly, grisly, heavenly, lonely, manly, kindly, orderly, scholarly, surly, many more . . . Huh? “In the face of danger, he acted cowardly.” Look like I’m using an adverb here. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/9 "2017-07-24T13:11:23Z")
My pet theory is because the root word fuck doesn’t work very well with -ly. Yes, something can be shittily built, but it’s awkward. And nobody says fuckly. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/10 "2017-07-24T13:52:24Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Huh? > > “In the face of danger, he acted cowardly.” > > Look like I’m using an adverb here. If that is indeed the case, then would that also apply to “orderly” and “disorderly”? > [@Barbarian](#): > > My pet theory is because the root word fuck doesn’t work very well with -ly. Wouldn’t that be because “fuck” is a verb (in most contexts, anyway), and thus verbs are never modified into an adverb? > [@Barbarian](#): > > My pet theory Totally irrelevant, and I’m sorry, but there’s no way I can read that without thinking of a certain…special…[someone](https://youtu.be/U6zWjUhfj-M?t=48)… [brackets, Miss brackets] ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/11 "2017-07-24T16:12:48Z")
[Obligatory song by Tom Lerher.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB2Ff8H7oVo) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/12 "2017-07-24T16:17:24Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > To pile extra layers of confusion on, there are also a great many adjectives ending in -ly that are strictly adjectives and cannot be used as adverbs. > > friendly, ugly, costly, cowardly, disorderly, ghastly, ghostly, grisly, heavenly, lonely, manly, kindly, orderly, scholarly, surly, many more . . . … [pretty] **fly** [for a white guy]… ---
**Author:** ![Karen\_Lingel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karen_lingel/32/18649_2.png) [@Karen\_Lingel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karen_Lingel)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/13 "2017-07-24T18:44:59Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > It’s an American thing and it started decades ago with dropping the “ly” from really. > > “That was real quick…” etc. The leftover "-ly"s have been pressed into use by those people who say they “feel badly”. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/14 "2017-07-24T22:27:20Z")
> [@Karen\_Lingel](#): > > The leftover "-ly"s have been pressed into use by those people who say they “feel badly”. Maybe their fingers don’t work so goodly? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/15 "2017-07-25T01:02:15Z")
Adjectiving weirds language. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-the-ly-adverb/791996/17 "2018-06-27T11:32:06Z")
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