# Whither Venezuela? Whither Congo? Whither "Self-Determination"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558 "2016-09-22T03:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/41 "2016-09-28T14:27:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem in Venezuela was they had an incompetent government that was doing a bad job running the country. They wasted a lot of money but they got away with it for a while because oil revenue was so high they could afford to waste most of it. They’ve been a source of financing for another Stalinist populist group, the Spanish political party Podemos. With Podemos doing quite well in the first elections we had this year, but losing a lot of ground in the second ones (we’re getting round three in December; my bet is that it will have the lowest participation levels ever), Maduro then asked for his money back. The issue has been off the newspapers for a while, but I expect he’s still waiting for that money to be returned. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/42 "2016-09-28T17:46:21Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > The top ten contributors are all Western democracies, including the U.S., U.K., Japan, German and Canada. None o the very wealthy oil producing countries are there. Japan is in the West? > [@JBGUSA](#): > > This should not come as a shock. This is the colonial system but with the West getting no benefits and the dictators getting unfettered access to funds, to steal and kill. My position is that there should be no aid, without serious restraints on how the money is spent. And in the case of Venezuela, no privatization of the oil industry, no aid. Full stop. That you can call UN and multilateral aid the colonial system but with the West getting no benefits displays complete and utter ignorance of what the colonial system was. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/43 "2016-10-02T19:31:16Z")
Venezuela is a textbook example of how left-wing economics and central command of an economy are very, very bad ideas. The reason you want private industry to run the oil business is because they’re actually competent at it. You cannot replace well functioning markets with central authority - the market is far too complex to work efficiently under a central authority. This is one of the classic blunders the left makes - like getting involved in a land war in Asia. Only this time, it’s the blunder of thinking that you can replace the accumulated local knowledge of factory owners, farmers, distributors and other participants in a market with party functionaries and earnest central bureaucrats, while maintaining even a semblance of efficiency. The Russians learned with the collectivization of agriculture that led to mass famines, and now Venezuela has learned it through the collectivization of the oil industry, which has led to such a shambles that a country with one of the largest oil reserves in the world can’t even produce enough oil for its own consumption. So of course the left is going to claim that the real problem was just ‘bad people’ running the government, or some other external factor. We can’t have people thinking that socialism or other forms of centralised government control can be a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/44 "2016-10-03T01:54:34Z")
It is the overall attitude-based argument which is at the heart of the Op’s opening post, that I take the most issue with. That is, that we should ignore 99.9% of WHY everything in the past happened as it did, and ASSUME that it was all due to selfish leaders in the target countries, who must now be treated as wayward children, and sent to bed without any supper. In particular, the fundamental fact is ignored, of this planet being organized into almost two hundred entirely independent nations, which MUST be allowed to retain their right to choose their own mistakes, up to a point, without being dictated to by others. If we set that concept aside, for the sake of emotional satisfaction, as is suggested here, we sacrifice our OWN right to live unmolested by other states. This idea also completely ignores the real danger that OTHER international actors will take our place, should we decide to tuck our own wealth away, and petulantly turn our backs. By the way, that is a small part of the very deep history behind all this, which the thread starter is obviously entirely ignorant of. I agree that some changes would be logical, it is just this wildly over-simplified, and punishment-based thinking that I take issue with. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/45 "2016-10-04T01:16:56Z")
Stunning that some in here are defending state-owned oil enterprise as Petrobras and PDVSA wither in flames. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/46 "2016-10-04T02:36:20Z")
I’m not defending state owned oil companies. But privatization is no panacea either. How do you think privatization is going to work in the real-world case of Venezuela? The state-owned assets will be sold off for pennies on the dollar, and the buyer will be the guy who hands out the most bribes to the dictator. The dictator gets billions, the oil companies start pumping oil, and the Venezuelan citizens gets nothing. Again, we’re not talkiing the ideal, we’re talking about how it would actually happen in the actual country of Venezula. Again, if the country wasn’t a shambolic dictatorship, then privatization would be a way to get at least some royalty and tax money out of the oil reserves. You get a lower percentage of the profits, but the output is greater, leading to higher revenues for the state. Plus you get the one-time cash boost of selling off your decrepit equipment that was just going to fall apart anyway. The only problem is, this can’t be done in Venezuela. Control over the oil industry is vital in these petrostates, and private oil companies are an independent power structure that is anathema to the rulership. It doesn’t matter that revenues to the state would be higher, controlling the country is more important. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/47 "2016-10-04T02:47:55Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Stunning that some in here are defending state-owned oil enterprise as Petrobras and PDVSA wither in flames. Good thing non-state-owned oil enterprises dodged that bullet. Oh wait… [List of 36 Oil & Gas Companies that Filed for Bankruptcy in 2015](http://marcellusdrilling.com/2015/11/list-of-36-oil-gas-companies-that-filed-for-bankruptcy-in-2015/) [Some Bankrupt Oil and Gas Drillers Can’t Give Their Assets Away](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-20/some-bankrupt-oil-and-gas-drillers-can-t-give-their-assets-away) [35% Of Public Oil Companies Could Face Bankruptcy](http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/35-Of-Public-Oil-Companies-Could-Face-Bankruptcy.html) [The 15 Biggest Oil Bankruptcies (So Far)](http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2016/05/09/the-15-biggest-oil-bankruptcies-so-far/#43318a1e739b) [Oil bankruptcies mount despite crude rebound](http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/16/investing/sandridge-energy-oil-bankruptcy/) [How Many More Oil & Gas Companies Will File for Bankruptcy?](https://www.thestreet.com/story/13301491/1/how-many-more-oil-gas-companies-will-file-for-bankrptcy.html) ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/48 "2016-10-04T20:01:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Except for the slight problem that Venezuela became independent in 1811 and the Congo became independent in 1960. So, 0 for 2. 1960 is from the “mid-19th Century on.” Good call on Venezuela but they still have not self-governed well. > [@Voyager](#): > > Venezuela is a disaster now, but has been quite livable for most of its history. Yeah, bad leadership can screw up a country. Things in the US weren’t so hot under Hoover either. We have friends who live there, now trying to get out, and while it wasn’t the US it was not bad at all. The U.S. did not have much violence during the Depression. Or much outward emigration. [quote=“Voyager, post:24, topic:766558”] As for the Congo, I lived there right after independence. You can blame a lot of their problems on the horrible Belgian colonial rule under King Leopold - possibly the worst colonial rule in all of Africa. Despite their being a very nice university outside of Leopoldville, the Belgians only allowed Congolese in right before independence. The entire class became ministers, being some of the most educated people there. And the Katanga war was all about Belgian mining interests looting the country even after independence. [quote] I think that over fifty years is plenty of time to right itself. > [@Voyager](#): > > I’d say most of Europe was kleptocracies 300 - 400 years ago, except that the kings didn’t even try to hide it. Some of those countries transitioned to better forms of government, some did not. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/49 "2016-10-04T20:11:28Z")
Edit: Bleh, never mind, I am an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/50 "2016-10-04T22:35:30Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > In particular, the fundamental fact is ignored, of this planet being organized into almost two hundred entirely independent nations, which MUST be allowed to retain their right to choose their own mistakes, up to a point, without being dictated to by others. If we set that concept aside, for the sake of emotional satisfaction, as is suggested here, we sacrifice our OWN right to live unmolested by other states. Except, of course, that Chavex’s cronies are eagerly and desperately subverting the government right now in an attempt to create a more-or-less dictatorial regime. It would be a lie to claim that they ignore the law. On the contrary, they enforce the law strictly… against their opponents. They also enforce quite a few things which aren’t laws, and often the “enforcement” is by people who don’t actually have any legal authority. So, the question becomes the age-old one of when it’s just to intervene in another country’s affairs, and how it is proper to do so. Certainly, I would argue that diplomatic intervention would be appropriate and moral. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Good thing non-state-owned oil enterprises dodged that bullet. Venezuela’s oil and gas was cratering, not because prices fell dramatically, but while they were still very and high and increasing. This was an entirely foreseeable outcome, and was, in fact, foreseen. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/51 "2016-10-05T00:47:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Good thing non-state-owned oil enterprises dodged that bullet. > > Oh wait… > > [List of 36 Oil & Gas Companies that Filed for Bankruptcy in 2015](http://marcellusdrilling.com/2015/11/list-of-36-oil-gas-companies-that-filed-for-bankruptcy-in-2015/) > [Some Bankrupt Oil and Gas Drillers Can’t Give Their Assets Away](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-20/some-bankrupt-oil-and-gas-drillers-can-t-give-their-assets-away) > [35% Of Public Oil Companies Could Face Bankruptcy](http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/35-Of-Public-Oil-Companies-Could-Face-Bankruptcy.html) > [The 15 Biggest Oil Bankruptcies (So Far)](http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2016/05/09/the-15-biggest-oil-bankruptcies-so-far/#43318a1e739b) > [Oil bankruptcies mount despite crude rebound](http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/16/investing/sandridge-energy-oil-bankruptcy/) > [How Many More Oil & Gas Companies Will File for Bankruptcy?](https://www.thestreet.com/story/13301491/1/how-many-more-oil-gas-companies-will-file-for-bankrptcy.html) Dang, you’re right. All those private companies going bankrupt totally cratered the country. I stand corrected. Let’s nationalize every oil company and reap the benefits of mutual destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/52 "2016-10-05T02:12:37Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Dang, you’re right. All those private companies going bankrupt totally cratered the country. > > I stand corrected. Let’s nationalize every oil company and reap the benefits of mutual destruction. You gave two examples of state-owned oil companies failing and cited it as evidence that nationalization is wrong. I just cited over a hundred non-state-owned oil companies failed in the last year. But I’m not saying that is proof that privatization is wrong. Privatization isn’t inherently wrong. Nationalization also isn’t inherently wrong. Both of them have successes and failures. Insisting that one or the other will always improve things (or even always work at all) is foolish. Good privatization is better than bad nationalization and good nationalization is better than bad privatization. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/53 "2016-10-05T05:12:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You gave two examples of state-owned oil companies failing and cited it as evidence that nationalization is wrong. I just cited over a hundred non-state-owned oil companies failed in the last year. > > But I’m not saying that is proof that privatization is wrong. Privatization isn’t inherently wrong. Nationalization also isn’t inherently wrong. Both of them have successes and failures. Insisting that one or the other will always improve things (or even always work at all) is foolish. > > Good privatization is better than bad nationalization and good nationalization is better than bad privatization. Except there are many very good reasons to believe that nationalization IS bad, and is a very inferior form of organization as compared to private markets where the owners and the controllers of capital are the people who are closest to the problems that need to be solved to run a country, and who have local knowledge not available to central planners. There are many other well known problems with nationalized industries. They have monopoly power, so prices are hard to set. They cause politics to intrude into what should be evidence-based decision-making. They distort markets and can be impossible to kill even when they serve no useful purpose. The ESA builds inefficient rockets in part because they have to be built in many different places and then shipped for assembly, as various politicians force themselves to the trough and wet their beaks in exchange for votes. NASA intentionally developed NASA across many different states and numerous separate facilities, as they knew this would give them perpetual votes from the Senators of those states. This kept the funding alive for Apollo, but was a large part of why the Space Shuttle was a white elephant right off the pad, and why NASA has had an endless string of manned program failures since. The onerous requirements put on what should be scientific and engineering decisions by politicians protecting jobs in their districts caused those programs to be choked with old technology and inappropriate choices. SLS is just more of the same. Nationalized industries have a terrible track record. Sure, you can find a few counter-examples that are at least for now functioning reasonably well, if not optimally. But the history of nationalization is generally one of failure, and there’s a good reason why countries across the world went on waves of privatization in the 1990’s. Canada has privatized large numbers of state-owned enterprizes since the 1980’s, and each time our economy has been better for it. When the U.S. government deregulated the airlines and the railroads under Carter, efficiency increased, prices fell, and safety went up. And these weren’t small effects, these industries were transformed by deregulation. On the other hand, Venezuela is just the latest in a long list of countries that have done extensive damage to their countries by attempting to nationalize and control their economies. You want the U.S. government to have more direct control over the economy, despite ample evidence that it is largely incompetent at the things it’s doing now. The VA is a mess. The education system is failing inner city children in a terrible way. Obamacare is turning into a disaster. The military is mired in inefficiency. Why on earth would any sane person decide that it would be a good thing if the government did much more of what it’s doing now? Or do you honestly believe that all these things are just problems to be fixed, and not a sign of real endemic flaws in the whole concept of attempting centralized control of complex systems you don’t understand? Given all the inherent flaws of nationalization, the bar should be set extraordinarily high for evidence and logic in favor of it. Hand-waving arguments and ideology are not enough. There may be cases where a market is so broken that nationalization is the only possible remedy. But the burden of proof is on you to show it before taking that power away from the people. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558/54 "2016-10-05T12:46:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You gave two examples of state-owned oil companies failing and cited it as evidence that nationalization is wrong. I just cited over a hundred non-state-owned oil companies failed in the last year. > > But I’m not saying that is proof that privatization is wrong. Privatization isn’t inherently wrong. Nationalization also isn’t inherently wrong. Both of them have successes and failures. Insisting that one or the other will always improve things (or even always work at all) is foolish. > > Good privatization is better than bad nationalization and good nationalization is better than bad privatization. I’m insisting privatized oil companies are always preferable to nationalized oil companies, as the greater proclivity of the latter toward corruption and social collateral are, frankly, undeniable. You seem to think that privatizing oil companies like PDVSA and Petrobras could result in a net detriment to Venezuela and Brasil. I don’t see much reason to follow that line of reasoning. It couldn’t get much worse, and if those companies were subject to the productivity gains and fiscal responsibility of a private company forced to compete on its own accord, they might _GASP_ actually turn a profit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whither-venezuela-whither-congo-whither-self-determination/766558.md?page=2)