# Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, and Celine Dion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994 "2005-07-18T16:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/41 "2005-07-20T19:23:08Z")
> [@The Peter Files](#): > > Oh, once you get there, you’ve earned the right to sing what you like. I like Whitney’s voice, but Celine Dion has always creeped me out. She looks like Pinocchio. Sure, she can sing, but she needs a sammich! crack is whack! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/42 "2005-07-20T19:43:08Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > I don’t think you’re getting my point - yes, they are very, very successful. They have fantastic, god-given voices. They use them to sing nothing but lite-rock schmaltz. That’s my problem. So many people like them singing David Foster’s brand of garbage - imagine how good they’d be if they bothered to sing something worth singing. I’d like to see any one of them attempt a Broadway musical, however, you need to act as well. I don’t think any of them are that good at acting. I agree, their songs suck. But they do have good voices. But would their voices be good enough in a different kind of music? Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/43 "2005-07-20T20:01:03Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > \I agree, their songs suck. But they do have good voices. But would their voices be good enough in a different kind of music? Who knows? If I had a voice like any of those three, I would be willing to experiment to find out. That’s part of what I don’t get - at this point in their careers, they truly could sing anything they wanted. Why not try an album of blues or jazz standards? Why not something a wee bit experimental, instead of the usual formula? I guess they are businesswomen, not artists, and I shouldn’t expect anything else from them. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/44 "2005-07-20T20:34:34Z")
You know, I bet at some point in their lives they _did_ experiment with blues and jazz and came to the conclusion that they suck at it. There’s probably hours and hours of stuff they tossed for good reason. Just because they have fantastic voices doesn’t mean they can simply cop any idiom and be a smashing success. It would be like watching that cringe-worthy footage of Eddie Vedder (a fine rock singer) and Joan Osborne (a fine blues & rock singer) trying to sing along with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, an incredibly spiritual singer from Pakistan. It just doesn’t work. By a long shot. I would welcome hearing them do more interesting material within their genre, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Vision\_of\_Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Vision\_of\_Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vision_of_Love)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/45 "2005-07-29T12:19:38Z")
I’m sure my username has already outed me to some 😉 but I am a pretty big Mariah fan. I’ve been a fan since I was 12, when I first heard _Always Be My Baby_. That was nine years ago, and since then, I’ve heard pretty much every song she’s recorded, written, or produced (discounting anything that was never released and never leaked). In the years since then, I’ve heard a lot of criticism of Mariah’s voice and her singing, so I’m used to it. An opinion is an opinion, so I rarely try to refute them, but I do occasionally laugh when I hear a rocker criticize someone like Mariah when he is clearly not her audience. Then there’s the argument that her voice is emotionless, but oftentimes, this comes from the same people who don’t hear any emotion in songs like _Butterfly_, _Close My Eyes_, or _We Belong Together_. So, I try to ignore this, because emotion is highly subjective anyway. What I think Mariah’s _inarguably_ great at (and doesn’t get much attention for) is vocal arrangements. She doesn’t always fully employ her skills in this department, but when she does, she’s pretty damn good. She knows how to lay a completely different background vocal on a main vocal, in that even though they are very different melodically, they practically envelop one another. I can name several examples from her **Butterfly** album alone. She really does have an ear for these things, despite a lack of formal musical training. As for Mariah’s forays into other genres, she’s had some: - **The Wind (1991)** - Jazz - **Anytime You Need A Friend (C&C Club Mix)** - Resung, with a fierce scat portion - Dance, in various rerecorded remixes Her main genres have been pop, R&B, and hip-hop, with some gospel. Sorry, no conclusion here; except that I think that, too often, people look at what an artist has released and base their judgments on those singles. I mean, this much criticism is no surprise to new artists, but the woman’s been in the business for 15 years now and people are still questioning her abilities and saying she has no talent. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/46 "2005-07-29T12:26:23Z")
FWIW, I think Mariah’s very talented and beautiful; she’s just never recorded a song I wanted to listen to. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/47 "2005-07-29T12:42:17Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > . . . walk into a bar. > > OK, complete the joke! The bartender sez, “Hey, why the bloodshot, exhausted, and long faces?” ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/48 "2005-07-29T15:10:41Z")
K.D, Langs first non country album Ingenue is loaded with talent and…get ready…I know its hard to believe but…original love songs. we have been listening to the same 4 love songs since god only knows when in pop music. and those 3 are all guilty of recording the same boring predictable crap. kinda makes me think of Christina Agulera, fantastic voice, zero interesting music. (I will happily admit my exposure to this stuff is limited since I get violent urges upon hearing even a few notes of pop garbage.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/49 "2005-07-29T17:03:35Z")
Compare the careers of the three singers from the OP to another popular female singer: Linda Ronstadt. Ronstadt may not be the greatest singer but she’s been willing to take chances. She did light rock and pop early in her career. But she’s done covers of Buddy Holly, Roy Orbison, Elvis Costello, and the Rolling Stones. She’s worked with Aaron Neville, Willie Nelson, and Nelson Riddle. She’s done folk songs, new wave, country and western, big band, Mexican canciones, lullabies, and Gilbert and Sullivan. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/50 "2005-07-29T17:44:39Z")
To me, the bottom line is that these three incredibly talented singers put style way before substance. It is like a great poet doing greeting cards or a great painter doing, well, greeting cards. Okay - you can claim success via vast sales - but your “art” is compromised at best. It’s as if their singing is _only_ about craft - look! I can hit notes and warble! - but seem devoid of true art. **BBVLou** as always, we are on the same page - I agree with your punishment of forcing them to listen to truly great singers who connect with their songs. (btw, I am _stunned_ anyone would question the inclusion of Patsy Cline - she rocks). I think, however, you missed the most important one: **Aretha Franklin**. Not only because she is the Queen of Soul, but because she is the Right that I think led to these Wrongs. They took her style - born of gospel, infused with jazz, r&b and rock - and stripped it of its emotional meaning. Whereas Aretha uses her vocal brilliance sparingly to maximize the emotional content of the song, these 3 are more inclined to use all tricks all the time and claim they are doing what Aretha does. Oy. And **The Peter Files**? - I fundamentally disagree with you and think you are missing the point of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/51 "2005-07-29T18:51:07Z")
* * * Originally Posted by Eve . . . walk into a bar. ## OK, complete the joke! The horse, the fungi, and the frayed knot say “That’s it, the scene here is too weird, let’s all go down the street to Applebees”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/52 "2005-07-30T02:27:53Z")
I like Celine-I even like the _Titanic_ song. _ducks_ Some of her stuff sucks, but I still like her. Plus, unlike many other so-called “divas”, she actually reputed to be a genuinely sweet and friendly person. Mariah Carey is dumb as a post and she doesn’t sing-she screeches. Whitney is a moronic crackhead with more money than taste. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/53 "2005-07-30T02:58:45Z")
Whitney Houston: Great voice, as was her mom. I’ve seen Cissy a few times at Jazz & Blues festivals. She is incredible. Whitney’s commercial stuff, mainly in 80’s and early 90’s sold very well. Her Early pop was fun. I have heard her do some standards & some Gospel. I would look to see if she ever recorded any of these performances. They were awesome and maybe what you were looking for. Mariah Carey: First album was great and showed some real soul & some Blues. I was completed blown away that the sound came from Beautiful young (thin) woman. I really expected to see an older stouter woman. After this she seemed to get trapped into some corporate puppet string scenario and never did another song I liked. Now I don’t even think her voice is still there. Celine Dion: This Banshee has talent? I find her singing painful and I flee from it. I liked her one song that Meatloaf’s writer wrote. Everything else is so painful. I’ll take Enya over all 3. Great voice and great songs. I’ll take Aretha over anyone. Does anyone remember VH1’s Divas Live (1998). Aretha, Celine, Mariah, Carol King & Gloria Estefan were the “Divas”. At end of show, they had a big final song and then Celine started to Diva out and out sing others. Then Mariah decided she had to beat her. It actual looked like a battle at this point. Carol looked slightly annoyed and just stopped as not her style and didn’t pretend to have the belt it out voice. Gloria just looked bemused. Aretha let them out squeal each other for a while and then reached down somewhere into herself where very few have ever been able to. She Belted out the song and overwhelmed them in perfect voice. Celine tried to overcome this and actually cracked a note. Mariah wisely just dropped down to accompaniment. ---
**Author:** ![hawkeyejo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e19b73/32.png) [@hawkeyejo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawkeyejo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/54 "2005-07-30T03:14:28Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > As I have said multiple times in this thread, I think these three ladies ARE PHENOMENAL SINGERS. I don’t, however, think they choose songs to record that are fitting for their calibre of talent, and that seems like a huge waste to me. Any old Kelly Clarkson can sing the stuff these three sing; it doesn’t take a booming set of pipes with hair-fine control. > > What would I like to see them singing? Something interesting; something that isn’t about how much they loo-ooooove some guy, or how much they miiii-iiiiiss some guy. I don’t know; I’m no song-writer, but I do know there are a whole lot of people making interesting music, so it is possible. > > As for your second point, I agree - at this point, these three should be able to sing what they like, and they still keep pumping out artistically-vacant, commercial crap. I’ve heard some releases from Mariah’s latest album - instantly forgettable. > > ( **Club 33** , my husband would totally agree with you.) I don’t think that a song’s difficulty has anything to do with the lyrics. If you want to listen to good lyrics, listen to songs that _you_ think are good lyrically. These three singers may be perfectly happy with the lyrics of their songs (and the composition). It hardly takes away from their talent and ability if someone else doesn’t agree with their choice of music. Apparently millions of people agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/55 "2005-07-30T17:19:18Z")
> [@hawkeyejo](#): > > I don’t think that a song’s difficulty has anything to do with the lyrics. If you want to listen to good lyrics, listen to songs that _you_ think are good lyrically. These three singers may be perfectly happy with the lyrics of their songs (and the composition). It hardly takes away from their talent and ability if someone else doesn’t agree with their choice of music. Apparently millions of people agree with them. Two points: 1. A lyric _can_ make a song difficult - if the person is actually trying to _interpret the song_ - that is, get inside the lyrics and express them. Technical bombast and diva caterwauling is NOT a substitute for true interpretation, no matter what these three think - again, I cite Aretha. 2. Who cares what millions think? Sure, these 3 have made a ton of money, but that does change the fact that they have betrayed their talent. It is rare that the good art that stands the test of time is also the popular art of its day - have you reviewed the BillBoard charts? 99% of the stuff on there is CRAP. That has nothing to do with this topic. **jrfranchi** - I actually do remember that Divas finale - it made me laugh. The fact that Aretha could easily - easily! - overpower them, but for the most part holds her ammo in check and sings for the song was perfectly illustrative of the point I am trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/56 "2005-07-30T21:37:38Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > \ **jrfranchi** - I actually do remember that Divas finale - it made me laugh. The fact that Aretha could easily - easily! - overpower them, but for the most part holds her ammo in check and sings for the song was perfectly illustrative of the point I am trying to make. I agree completely - and then we have the opposite, the late, great Luther Vandross who had this huge, smooth voice that he just would not take the brakes off of. Disclaimer - I haven’t listened to everthing Luther did - if somebody has an example of him letting loose, please let me know. **jrfranchi** , Celine did a lot of work in French as well - my husband says one of her French albums, _chante Plamondon_, has good examples of her singing with some skill, instead of just screeching. He has also seen her live three times way back when; the first time (in 1991), the show was pretty lacking, but the voice was first-class. ---
**Author:** ![cruel\_butterfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@cruel\_butterfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cruel_butterfly)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994/57 "2005-07-30T22:14:53Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > \Celine did that song from Titanic which shall not be named. For that she will burn in hell for eternity, much like her song will play in hell for eternity. Ugh! I had to hear that Song Which Shall Remain Nameless so many frickin’ times on the radio with dialog from the movie clumsily interspersed throughout. Every time I’ve heard it since (while bound and gagged, of course), my brain betrays me by filling in the dialog snippets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whitney-houston-mariah-carey-and-celine-dion/312994.md?page=2)