# Who are bigger idiots - the birthers or the health care "death panel" believers? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 11, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061 "2009-08-11T15:06:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/21 "2009-08-11T20:15:26Z")
I’d have to go for the birthers. As **TWDuke** said; their entire conspiracy theory makes no sense. The “death panel” people are more paranoid than stupid; nations have done things just as bad to weed out those they considered unfit ( Nazi Germany obviously comes to mind ). But there’s no reason to think that a present day American health care system is going to systematically kill the old or mentally disabled any more than Canada or Britain’s does. And we already have health care rationing by the corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/22 "2009-08-11T21:02:49Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > For sheer stupidity, it’s the birthers. The whole “theory” depends on a pregnant American woman of limited means flying thousands of miles to give birth in Kenya, then engaging in a conspiracy to make it look like her baby was born in the United States. Not only is there no evidence of that occurring, it’s absurd on the face of it. The easiest way to make it look like he was born in the United States would have been to give birth in the United States. People who claim that’s not what happened are being stupid, crazy, dishonest, or some combination thereof. It’s not just that: they think she flew back with the new-born Barack shortly afterwards. They have no idea how expensive plane travel was back in the early 60s, or how far apart Kenya and Hawaii are. (I travelled with my famiy between England and Australia the year that Barack Obama was born: we went by ship, because that was cheaper than travelling by air in those days, and it took 3 to 4 weeks each way). The other crazy thing about this conspiracy is that if you wanted to line up a person to be President nearly 50 years from 1961, would you go for an African American baby? This was the middle of the civil rights movement, when they were just aiming to get black people the vote. Martin Luther King Jr might have had a dream about black and white equality, but would they really have planned around getting a specific African American baby elected as President? This at a time when being Catholic counted against getting Jack Kennedy elected! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/23 "2009-08-11T21:03:36Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > 1000 pages of legislation is like 150 real pages. Between all the headings, indents, spacing, and large type, there’s actually not that much there. True, but that would have stepped on my ripping off either TDS or Colbert. I skimmed the entire stimulus bill in about 15 minutes - almost all boilerplate and tables. I think those moaning and groaning about the length of these bills are those who have trouble making it through reading the back of a cereal box during a (long) breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/24 "2009-08-11T21:06:52Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Health care, however, is a complicated issue about which reasonable people can legitimately disagree. In behavioral terms, of course people who disrupt democratic proceedings and drown out legitimate discussion using canned talking points are being jerks, but that doesn’t necessarily make them idiots. The idiot group does not consist of those who think the healthcare bill is bad policy, but those who think it includes a death panel. Surely you’re not equating these two groups? If health care proponents disrupted meetings of Republican legislators because they were convinced the bill promised them eternal life or some such nonsense, they’d be just as idiotic. Luckily, no one on the for side appears to be this stupid. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/25 "2009-08-11T21:27:15Z")
The health care bill has a provision for Medicare doctors to get paid for discussing living wills, health care proxies, hospice care etc. Maybe from Alaska that loooks like a death panel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/26 "2009-08-11T22:06:48Z")
Tough call, but I’d have to give the edge to the Birthers, who are flying in the face of plain historical facts rather than of the details of a policy-work-in-progress. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/27 "2009-08-11T22:27:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The health care bill has a provision for Medicare doctors to get paid for discussing living wills, health care proxies, hospice care etc. Maybe from Alaska that loooks like a death panel. Right now it is often the case that the lawyer and client discuss end of life medical care without the doctor who is actually going to be doing it involved. I blush to admit that’s exactly what we did. Perhaps the right-to-suffer crowd who believe on forcing someone in pain and near death to hang on as long as possible don’t want this discussed at all. The Rep who put it in, I believe, is from the state where it is legal to assist someone choosing to end it, so I can see why he’d want it paid for, but it will be a useful provision for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/28 "2009-08-11T22:29:35Z")
Bothe are aply represented in the local newspaper’s “lletters to the editor” section, and message board. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/29 "2009-08-11T22:47:53Z")
Either way, it’s truly scary to know these people exist. I am _more_ scared for America’s future now than I was during the Bush regime. Not because of Obama, but because Obama’s presidency is really bringing these people out of the woodwork in full force. It’s like when I would go into my kitchen in the middle of the night and turn on the light and see cockroaches scurrying away. Even if I kinda knew they were there before, not having to look at them constantly gave me some peace. But now that the light is shining full force, it’s nothing but fucking cockroaches everywhere and it’s nasty. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/30 "2009-08-12T03:47:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The idiot group does not consist of those who think the healthcare bill is bad policy, but those who think it includes a death panel. Surely you’re not equating these two groups? Any health insurance system - public, private, or mixed - is going to have some mechanism for allotting resources. At some point, this is going to involve groups of people making life-or-death decisions. The fools are those who believe there are “death panels” in one system but not in another. But health care and insurance are undeniably complicated and confusion and frustration are inevitable. The birth-certificate controversy, on the other hand, is utter nonsense manufactured from raw grade A stupidity, dishonesty, delusion, and sour grapes. > [@](#): > > If health care proponents disrupted meetings of Republican legislators because they were convinced the bill promised them eternal life or some such nonsense, they’d be just as idiotic. Luckily, no one on the for side appears to be this stupid. I think a better analogue would be if they were convinced that the bill promised unlimited free health care for all. I can’t say _no one_ on our side is foolish enough to believe that, but if they do they aren’t as numerous, loud, and assholish about it. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/31 "2009-08-12T04:24:07Z")
Well, the “death panel” loons at least have one foot in reality. Okay, a pinky toe in reality. When it comes to a health care system of any kind everyone won’t be able to get what they want and someone somewhere will have to make the ugly life and death decisions far removed from the emotional reactions the patients. So if you stretch the concept to the breaking point that’s their “death panel” and of course they have to ignore the fact that we have them already and will have them no matter how health care shakes out. So based on the idea that “death panels” have at least a vague association with reality and the birthers do not I not have to give it to birthers. Yeah, the health care protesters are loud and obnoxious now but America has a long history of wrong-headed, loud, and obnoxious protesters from both sides so I can’t hold that against them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/32 "2009-08-12T04:40:50Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > I think a better analogue would be if they were convinced that the bill promised unlimited free health care for all. I can’t say _no one_ on our side is foolish enough to believe that, but if they do they aren’t as numerous, loud, and assholish about it. Know what would be cool? A bunch of people with some wound makeup, etc., dressing up as if they were at death’s door, and when one of the protester’s refuses to shut up, surround him yelling, “you want us to die!” ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/33 "2009-08-12T04:52:15Z")
> [@Investor's Business Daily](#): > > Editor’s Note: This version corrects the original editorial which implied that physicist Stephen Hawking, a professor at the University of Cambridge, did not live in the UK. In other words: This version corrects a mistake in the original editorial which demonstrated that our entire premise was complete horseshit. We regret the error. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/34 "2009-08-12T07:54:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > In a split decision, because I’m personally torn, I’m going with the birthers. I think the only people who top them are the Holocaust deniers. No, the 9/11 “Truthers” top the Birthers, and the Truthers are topped by the Holocaust deniers. But between Birthers and Death Panelists, Birthers win the So Stupid You Can Hardly Believe It Award, but DPs are more dangerous. They might actually have an effect on the health care debate. Of course, they often overlap. The scary DP who was wearing a gun strapped to his leg before President Obama’s town hall meeting today was a DP _and_ a Birther. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/35 "2009-08-12T08:08:31Z")
Birthers. The Death Panel stuff isn’t completely unfounded, it’s just mostly unfounded. > **[DEADLY DOCTORS](https://nypost.com/2009/07/24/deadly-doctors/)** > > THE health bills coming out of Congress would put the de cisions about your care in the hands of presidential appointees. They’d decide what plans cover, how much leeway your doctor will have… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/36 "2009-08-12T10:53:40Z")
[**Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama’s ‘Deadly Doctor,’ Strikes Back**](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915835,00.html) > [@](#): > > “I couldn’t believe this was happening to me,” says Emanuel, who in addition to spending his career opposing euthanasia and working to increase the quality of care for dying patients, is the brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel. “It is incredible how much one’s reputation can be besmirched and taken out of context.” > > It would only get worse. **Within days, the Post article, with selective and misleading quotes from Emanuel’s 200 or so published academic papers, went viral.** Minnesota Representative Michelle Bachmann, a fierce opponent of Obama’s reform plans, read large portions of it on the House floor. “Watch out if you are disabled!” she warned. Days later, in an online posting, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin attacked Emanuel’s “Orwellian thinking,” which she suggested would lead to a “downright evil” system that would employ a “death panel” to decide who gets lifesaving health care. By August 10, hysteria had begun to take over in places… Much more at source, rebutting the morons who still cling to The Post’s hit-piece. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/37 "2009-08-12T11:37:12Z")
I flipped a coin. It’s the birthers. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/38 "2009-08-12T12:00:13Z")
Maybe all the townhall meetings should be held with some kind of happy gas being filtered into through the vents. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/39 "2009-08-12T12:17:07Z")
I am so fucking sick of all these pubbies saying that both sides have their loons. Here is the difference: loons on the left are isolated and derided by the Democratic Party; loons on the right are their elected officers like Bachmann. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061/40 "2009-08-12T13:34:55Z")
This is a great opportunity, folks, and I don’t get why we’re not all over it. In the future, some of these people will deny that they ever called Obama a baby-killer, or an old-person-murderer, or raved about his foreign birth, or opposed UHC as fascistic socialism, but now they’re willing to go on the record, get filmed saying so with spittle flying, etc. Now’s the chance to record this stuff, and to keep it for use in future political campaigns. Maybe some of them will run for office in districts where enough voters in 2018 will no longer care about this stuff, but it’s going to be very difficult to win office in most places where 50% of the voters not only disagree wtih you but have reason to think you’re a batshit-paranoic or a total demogogue. Keep 'em talking, I say: campaign fodder for decades to come. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-bigger-idiots-the-birthers-or-the-health-care-death-panel-believers/506061.md?page=3)