# Who are good white-male historical figures? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2017, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234 "2017-09-01T10:11:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/1 "2017-09-01T10:11:37Z")
Who are while-male historical figures who aren’t problematic, and who deserve to have statues remain up (if there are statues of them)? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/2 "2017-09-01T10:29:22Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > . . . and who deserve to have statues remain up (if there are statues of them)? Do you have a point, here? Your question is posed as if there is a movement to tear down all statues, everywhere, when there is no such movement. The significant recent movement has been to remove a specific set of statues of Confederate leaders that were erected during the earliest days of Jim Crow to celebrate secession and to ensure that black people “knew their place” in society. That has led to a few, minor, locally driven efforts to challenge specific individuals in specific locations. The only non-Confederate statues that are under serious threat of removal are those of Christopher Columbus–a person whose whitewashed history of genocide and rapine have been the topic of protests for decades. Do you have evidence that there is a general movement to remove (or destroy) the statues of every flawed human in history? Or are you reacting to a tiny number of loud iconoclasts who have gone well beyond the actual movement regarding the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/3 "2017-09-01T10:36:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do you have a point, here? > > Your question is posed as if there is a movement to tear down all statues, everywhere, when there is no such movement. The significant recent movement has been to remove a specific set of statues of Confederate leaders that were erected during the earliest days of Jim Crow to celebrate secession and to ensure that black people “knew their place” in society. That has led to a few, minor, locally driven efforts to challenge specific individuals in specific locations. The only non-Confederate statues that are under serious threat of removal are those of Christopher Columbus–a person whose whitewashed history of genocide and rapine have been the topic of protests for decades. > Do you have evidence that there is a general movement to remove (or destroy) the statues of every flawed human in history? Or are you reacting to a tiny number of loud iconoclasts who have gone well beyond the actual movement regarding the Confederacy. And Theodore Roosevelt, and now Peter Stuyversant. I told you it was a slippery slope. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/4 "2017-09-01T10:37:28Z")
> **[Jewish activists target removal of Peter Stuyvesant monuments](https://nypost.com/2017/08/24/jewish-activists-target-removal-of-peter-stuyvesant-monuments/)** > > Move over Christopher Columbus, it’s Peter Stuyvesant’s turn to get scorched in the monuments war. A Jewish activist group is now demanding Mayor de Blasio scrub all traces of the anti-… A total erasure of Stuvyersant from this city. Who next? ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/5 "2017-09-01T10:41:24Z")
[http://www.wtol.com/story/36227547/col-crawford-statue-at-crawford-county-courthouse-beheaded](http://www.wtol.com/story/36227547/col-crawford-statue-at-crawford-county-courthouse-beheaded) Col. Crawford, who died almost 50 years before the Confederacy’s statue was beheaded. Please tell me why I am so wrong in believing it will be limited to the Confederates and Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/6 "2017-09-01T10:45:25Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > Who are while-male historical figures who aren’t problematic, and who deserve to have statues remain up (if there are statues of them)? The answer is pretty straightforward: what public monuments are either major artworks, or reflect the values we as a society want to reflect? If Stuyvesant was a crazy antisemite, and if New York decides to get rid of his statue, the fuck do I care? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/7 "2017-09-01T10:57:17Z")
OP, in another thread, you mentioned several times that you’re in favor of taking down the Confederate Statues, so I’m confused about this thread. I’ll assume you’re asking in good faith about good white male historical figures. Here are some off the top of my head in no particular order: Washington Lincoln Einstein Turing Roosevelt Ben Franklin Kennedy Newton Leibnitz Twain (Clemens?) Gutenberg Steinbeck Asimov Sagan Jimmy Stewart Freddy Mercury John Lennon Later-stage Michael Jackson 🙂 All of those figures were human (as far as we know – have we done DNA testing of all of them? Maybe they were aliens!), so they all had their own pluses and minuses, but I think they added more to society and can be remembered for the good things they did. It’s an odd request, because historically with surprisingly few exceptions, most Western historical figures were white males. A more interesting question might be good non-male or non-white historical figures in Western history (obviously, Asia and Africa will have an abundance of non-white figures, although not too many non-male figures either) ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/8 "2017-09-01T11:04:20Z")
And no one is asking for all statues of Theodore Roosevelt to be taken down. The one being protested in NYC (and these are not new protests) is a particularly egregious tribute to Imperialism. It might well have been titled “White Man’s Burden.” ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/9 "2017-09-01T11:33:16Z")
OP, you understand the difference between the Confederate statues and the others, right? The Confederate figures are being celebrated for their treason and their support for white supremacy and slavery. The Stuyvesant statue doesn’t celebrate his anti-semitism, rather his early role in NY history. Now, if New Yorkers decide his bad outweighs his good, they can take the statue down, but the Confederate statues definitely have a lower bar for removal. Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/10 "2017-09-01T11:43:02Z")
Well, there’s always Jesus. 😛 Isn’t the real problem elevating men into mythical figures? Most statues celebrate politicians and military leaders. Of course they’re going to be problematic. How many Medal of Honor winners have statues? How about Jonas Salk? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/11 "2017-09-01T11:52:17Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > And no one is asking for all statues of Theodore Roosevelt to be taken down. The one being protested in NYC (and these are not new protests) is a particularly egregious tribute to Imperialism. It might well have been titled “White Man’s Burden.” And the problem is less Roosevelt himself than the appearance of the other figures in the statue. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/12 "2017-09-01T11:53:34Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > [http://www.wtol.com/story/36227547/col-crawford-statue-at-crawford-county-courthouse-beheaded](http://www.wtol.com/story/36227547/col-crawford-statue-at-crawford-county-courthouse-beheaded) > > Col. Crawford, who died almost 50 years before the Confederacy’s statue was beheaded. Please tell me why I am so wrong in believing it will be limited to the Confederates and Columbus. “The sheriff’s department says there is no indication the event is related to the recent vandalisms being reported around the state.” ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/13 "2017-09-01T12:07:10Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And the problem is less Roosevelt himself than the appearance of the other figures in the statue. It’s almost as if people believe what they are told instead of listening to the folks making the complaint. Teddy on a horse - fine. Teddy on a horse leading two of our dark skinned brothers into the light - umm, that doesn’t represent our beliefs today and NYC should be embarrassed about it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/14 "2017-09-01T12:13:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > OP, in another thread, you mentioned several times that you’re in favor of taking down the Confederate Statues, so I’m confused about this thread. I’ll assume you’re asking in good faith about good white male historical figures. > > Here are some off the top of my head in no particular order: > Washington > Lincoln > Einstein > Turing > Roosevelt > Ben Franklin Just to clarify: what’s your opinion of the _other_ Roosevelt? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/15 "2017-09-01T12:43:40Z")
Just a few: John Adams John Quincy Adams Ben Franklin Lincoln Thaddeus Stevens both Roosevelts ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/16 "2017-09-01T12:49:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Just to clarify: what’s your opinion of the _other_ Roosevelt? Roosevelt Franklin from Sesame Street? Pretty cool, for a puppet. Theodore Roosevelt? Tough as nails, gave a speech after being shot. Also seems pretty cool. Inventor of the teddy bear (not really, I guess). Eleanor Roosevelt? Doesn’t meet the OP’s criteria. You’re probably asking about the middle one. I’m not a(n) historian, but he seems fine to me. Is there some reason why I should not like him? Is he being celebrated for being a slaver or something? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/17 "2017-09-01T14:18:31Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Just to clarify: what’s your opinion of the _other_ Roosevelt? Which one is the “other” Roosevelt? The cowboy or the socialist? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/18 "2017-09-01T15:03:02Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Roosevelt Franklin from Sesame Street? Pretty cool, for a puppet. > > Theodore Roosevelt? Tough as nails, gave a speech after being shot. Also seems pretty cool. Inventor of the teddy bear (not really, I guess). > > Eleanor Roosevelt? Doesn’t meet the OP’s criteria. > > You’re probably asking about the middle one. I’m not a(n) historian, but he seems fine to me. Is there some reason why I should not like him? Is he being celebrated for being a slaver or something? Not that I’m aware of. I mean, I figure FDR actually gets bonus Captain America points for the whole “Versus Hitler” thing, y’know? Like, we’d even forgive some stuff and keep him on the dime, because Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/19 "2017-09-01T15:10:08Z")
Ron McDonald. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234/20 "2017-09-01T16:15:27Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > Who are while-male historical figures who aren’t problematic, and who deserve to have statues remain up (if there are statues of them)? Nothing personal, but you seem to have a real hangup about race. Why not just let it go? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-good-white-male-historical-figures/795234.md?page=2)