# Who are Native Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918 "2010-08-11T06:40:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/61 "2010-08-12T16:06:28Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > [@qpw3141](#): > > > > Ah, the ‘everyone else does it so it’s OK to do it’, argument. Not one that goes down well with everybody. > > It may not be a good argument in other contexts, but it is how language works. If enough people use a word to mean something, it does mean that. It doesn’t matter if that meaning is illogical. That was not the point I was making. It is well known that there is much about language that is ambiguous - even very formal language. In most cases the ambiguity come about through gradual evolution. What I was suggesting is that just because there are aspects of language that have evolved to be ambiguous does not mean that actually consciously choosing a name to mean something when it already has a natural meaning that is quite different _in very similar contexts_ is a very clever thing to do. Before whoever it was came up with the term ‘Native Americans’ to mean what it, to many, now means, it already meant something that was a superset of the new meaning. It would be rather as if an aircraft manufacturer produced a new range of wide bodied jet aircraft using a new alloy that caused them all to glow brilliant white and decided to identify the range by the name ‘light aircraft’. Not clever because ‘light aircraft’ already has an established meaning at odds with the new range. On the other hand if that’s the term the public evolved to identify them there’s not much you can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/62 "2010-08-12T16:08:31Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > [@tim-n-va](#): > > > > I have the solution. We’ll call them donarbea for “descendents of north american residents before europeans arrived”. > > Good luck with that. Ask the Academie Francaise just how successful a campaign to change language usage can be. They’ve been trying, without too much success, to get rid of English loan-words in French. Which is odd when you consider how impoverished the English language would be if we were to remove all the words we originally ‘borrowed’ from the French. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/63 "2010-08-12T16:08:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Basically, the word used in English, (where the phrase occurs), to identify the two major land masses and related islands that are separated from Eurasia and Africa by the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans is “America,” (North and South). That doesn’t cover the native Hawaiins, also considered native Americans. > [@](#): > > The people who lived here before the arrival of the English speaking settlers from Europe would be considered natives. Hence, the phrase “Native American” can be used to identify them in English. This should be news for the French and the Spanish settlers here before Jamestown. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/64 "2010-08-12T16:52:40Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Basically, the word used in English, (where the phrase occurs), to identify the two major land masses and related islands that are separated from Eurasia and Africa by the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans is “America,” (North and South). > > That doesn’t cover the native Hawaiins, also considered native Americans. “Native American” is pretty much never used by Yanks to refer to aboriginal Hawaiians. They tend to be called Hawaiian or Polynesian. I would not claim that the term is never applied to them, but is so rare as to be insignificant. (The same thing tends to be true of the Eskimoes, although as mainlanders associated with neighboring non-Eskimo peoples, the term might occasionally show up there.) > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > The people who lived here before the arrival of the English speaking settlers from Europe would be considered natives. Hence, the phrase “Native American” can be used to identify them in English. > > This should be news for the French and the Spanish settlers here before Jamestown. A rather pointless nitpick, given that the Spaniards were driven from Florida and the French were vastly outnumbered by English in Detroit and Vincennes as soon as the English arrived. A tiny number of outliers does not change the general movement or the language. (And remember, “Native American” tends to be a U.S. term, so the people employing it are not really looking at Quebec or Mexico City when they use it.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/65 "2010-08-12T17:00:14Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > That was not the point I was making. It is well known that there is much about language that is ambiguous - even very formal language. In most cases the ambiguity come about through gradual evolution. > > What I was suggesting is that just because there are aspects of language that have evolved to be ambiguous does not mean that actually consciously choosing a name to mean something when it already has a natural meaning that is quite different _in very similar contexts_ is a very clever thing to do. OK. You have made your point. However: Lots of terms–even those deliberately chosen–have flaws in their underlying logic; “Native American” is not really a commonly used phrase, given that the peoples to whom it applies generally do not use it and the people who do use it tend to have no contact with the people to whom it refers; To the extent that it is used, it immediately conveys its intended meaning in 99.99999% of those occasions, making objections to its “logic” rather pointless. If you need to fight over a poorly chosen word, go pick a battle over the misuse of “shrapnel” for “shell fragment.” Now can we drop the hijack? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/66 "2010-08-12T17:05:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The same thing tends to be true of the Eskimoes, although as mainlanders associated with neighboring non-Eskimo peoples, the term might occasionally show up there. In Alaska, Eskimos are called Eskimos. But the more usual term is “native” or “Alaska native”, which means Eskimo or Athabaskan or Indian or Aleut. Most white people just lump everyone into the “native” category unless there’s a particular reason not to. And of course, “native” can be used with a certain tone of voice that turns it from a neutral descriptor into an ethnic slur, I’m sure everyone has heard “black” used the same way. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/67 "2010-08-12T17:35:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > OK. You have made your point. Thanks. I know I have. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Lots of terms–even those deliberately chosen–have flaws in their underlying logic; > “Native American” is not really a commonly used phrase, given that the peoples to whom it applies generally do not use it and the people who do use it tend to have no contact with the people to whom it refers; > To the extent that it is used, it immediately conveys its intended meaning in 99.99999% of those occasions, making objections to its “logic” rather pointless. If that is your opinion I completely respect your right to hold it. > [@](#): > > If you need to fight over a poorly chosen word, go pick a battle over the misuse of “shrapnel” for “shell fragment.” I wasn’t looking for a fight. I made a simple point (something you have conceded) which seemed to cause a great deal of angst and a lot of strawman counter arguments that I felt I ought to defend. > [@](#): > > Now can we drop the hijack? If you go back and look at how the ‘hijack’ started you’ll see that it was a perfectly sensible and, more importantly, on topic, comment; that to determine who native Americans are you first have to decide which definition you are using. Nothing more than that. I had hoped I’d finished with this thread until you posted this. As far as I’m concerned it’s now dropped. Let’s hope no one decides to pick it up and start again. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/68 "2010-08-12T18:31:59Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > [If you go back and look at how the ‘hijack’ started you’ll see that it was a perfectly sensible and, more importantly, on topic, comment; that to determine who native Americans are you first have to decide which definition you are using. You have fully ignored my point though. Even if the determination of what “native American” means is given to some degree of doubt, the determination of what “Native American” means, is not. The same distinction may be made, for instance, between south African, and South African. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/69 "2010-08-12T18:51:45Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > You have fully ignored my point though. > > Even if the determination of what “native American” means is given to some degree of doubt, the determination of what “Native American” means, is not. The same distinction may be made, for instance, between south African, and South African. We’ve been asked not to continue with this so called hi-jack. Just to answer your points, though: Spoken communications and ‘Native’ at the beginning of a sentence. And compass points should always be capitalised so you should never see ‘south African’. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/70 "2010-08-12T21:59:19Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > They were [nations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation). > > > [@Wikipedia](#): > > > > A nation is a group of people who share culture, ethnic origin and language, often possessing or seeking its own independent government. Errr… not so much, no. We’re not entirely clear just how closely connected even nominally-similar tribes were ethnically. Lingually, some seem to have been divided. Culture was usually shared significantly with a tribe, but the tribes were also spread out and intermixed, and rarely had a significant government over them as a tribe. I will grant that evidence is sparse and incomplete now, because many languages have vanished, records never created or gone, and peoples assimiilated. But there’s evidence of two or three migrations now, not just one. Languages seem to have been substantially divergent over area, with little commercial contact between people of the same tribe, let alone neighboring ones. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/71 "2010-08-12T22:30:59Z")
Our notions of the systems of government in North America are skewed, because aside from early Spanish contact, European contact happened after the continent-wide pandemics. The Mississippi valley is full of earthworks from the Mound Builders, but by the time European settlers arrived the Mound Builder civilization was gone. These earthworks weren’t constructed by a few scattered bands of hunter-gatherers. The Spanish famously encountered many state level civilizations during their conquests. The Pilgrims famously were taught how to farm by the Indians. The vast majority of Indians in 1491 were farmers, not nomadic hunter-gatherers. State level social organization was common. Continent-wide trade networks existed, although we see interesting things, like tobacco paraphernalia showing up in Alaska in the 1600s–apparently tobacco was introduced from the Americas to Europe, and across Eurasia to Siberia, and showed up in Alaska the long way round. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/72 "2010-08-12T23:30:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > A rather pointless nitpick, given that the Spaniards were driven from Florida and the French were vastly outnumbered by English in Detroit and Vincennes as soon as the English arrived. A tiny number of outliers does not change the general movement or the language. (And remember, “Native American” tends to be a U.S. term, so the people employing it are not really looking at Quebec or Mexico City when they use it.) This is pure bullshit. We simply do not define "native americans " any where in the New World continents or in the United States of America or anywhere else on the globe based on who lived where before English speakers arrived anywhere. It was a completely stupid statement on your part and frankly, I know that you know that as well. “Native americans” is a term commonly used in Canada as well when we refer to your aboriginals or first nations. You Americans don’t own the English language. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/73 "2010-08-12T23:59:46Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > A rather pointless nitpick, given that the Spaniards were driven from Florida and the French were vastly outnumbered by English in Detroit and Vincennes as soon as the English arrived. A tiny number of outliers does not change the general movement or the language. (And remember, “Native American” tends to be a U.S. term, so the people employing it are not really looking at Quebec or Mexico City when they use it.) > > This is pure bullshit. We simply do not define "native americans " any where in the New World continents or in the United States of America or anywhere else on the globe based on who lived where before English speakers arrived anywhere. It was a completely stupid statement on your part and frankly, I know that you know that as well. I know that you are getting awfully testy over a rather minor nitpick. Whatever settlers arrived from Europe before the British involved fewer than a couple thousand people (in a land populated by many millions) and began fewer than 110 years prior to the arrival of the British, (as opposed to the several thousand years that people migrating from Asia had been here). > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > “Native americans” is a term commonly used in Canada as well when we refer to your aboriginals or first nations. You Americans don’t own the English language. I never claimed that the U.S. owned the language. I am sorry to hear that some of your co-nationalists have picked up some of the bad habits of their Southern neighbors, given that the people identified as “Native Americans” generally eschew that phrase, themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/74 "2010-08-13T00:19:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The next post that continues the bickering over . . . whether or not another poster is “worked up” will receive a Warning for hijacking the thread. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I know that you are getting awfully testy over a rather minor nitpick. Oooh, I’m telling… That said, **qpw** , one of the areas of language least amenable to logic is idioms. It’s never helpful to pick nits over idioms. [Here’s the best history of the term that I can find–Wikipedia, of course](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy#Native_American). > [@](#): > > In The Peyote Cult, (Yale University Press, 1938, 5th ed. 1989), Weston La Barre traces the meaning of “Native American” as “American Indian” to the year 1918, when leaders of the Peyote Religion in Oklahoma incorporated as the Native American Church (of Oklahoma). In 1950 they incorporated as the Native American Church of North America. > > In 1918, the State of Oklahoma repealed its earlier ban against the sacramental use of psychotropic peyote. But the same year, the national Bureau of Indian Affairs sought to impose a federal ban. In response, a group of Oto, Kiowa, and Arapaho met at Cheyenne, Oklahoma to “decide upon measures of defense for peyotism.” The group considered but rejected a proposed name of “First-born Church of Christ”. “The title ultimately chosen was the ‘Native American Church’, which emphasized the intertribal solidarity of the cult, as well as its aboriginality.” (Quoted material is from La Barre, page 169.) > > Among the earliest titles (in the OCLC database) in which “Native American” means “American Indian” are these: > > ``` > Peyote Songs: Music of the Native American Church of North America (Indian) (sound recording, 1967) > Native American Arts (Indian Arts and Crafts Board, Washington, D.C., 1968) > Buffalo Hearts, A Native American's View of Indian Culture, Religion and History (Sun Bear, 1970) > Indian Voices: the Native American Today (Convocation of American Indian Scholars, 1971) > Native American tribalism; Indian Survivals and Renewals (D'Arcy McNicle, 1973) > > ``` > > The Oxford English Dictionary (article on “Native”, note 15) offers the year 1956 as the earliest usage of “Native American” meaning “North American Indian”, the example being a letter in which Aldous Huxley mentioned the “Native American churchmen.” The only other early-usage examples are dated 1973–1974 and are from the Black Panther and New Society magazines. One of the articles refers to the Native American Church and the other two do not. > > To summarize: “Native American” originally meant “originating in America” (specifically the United States), without reference to American Indians. In 1918, the “Native American Church” was incorporated. Beginning in the 1960s, the term “Native American”, sometimes pertaining to the Church and sometimes not, began to appear more widely in titles of books, magazine articles, and musical recordings. Note that the term started off in the 19th century being non-idiomatic, that is, literally meaning “born in America.” By the mid-twentieth century, however, this usage had virtually disappeared, and the usage of “Belonging to a cultural group whose presence in North America predates European presence” prevailed. The phrase should now be understood as an idiom, along with such phrases as, “You’re welcome,” “what’s up,” “keep your eye on the ball,” and, “when come back, bring pie.” Insisting on understanding it as two separate words will only lead to confusion. And yes, someone learning our language needs to learn the more common idioms. Learning only the grammar and the vocabulary will lead to an impoverished linguistic experience. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/75 "2010-08-13T00:47:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oooh, I’m telling… 😃 Hey, we are all human. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/76 "2010-08-14T04:03:29Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > [@tim-n-va](#): > > > > I have the solution. We’ll call them donarbea for “descendents of north american residents before europeans arrived”. > > Good luck with that. Ask the Academie Francaise just how successful a campaign to change language usage can be. They’ve been trying, without too much success, to get rid of English loan-words in French. But African Americans (negros, colored people, people of color, blacks, American Negroes, Black-Americans, Afro-Americans) successfully change what they’d like to be called about every 10 years, and everyone goes along with it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/77 "2010-08-14T11:57:30Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > > [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > > Good luck with that. Ask the Academie Francaise just how successful a campaign to change language usage can be. They’ve been trying, without too much success, to get rid of English loan-words in French. > > But African Americans (negros, colored people, people of color, blacks, American Negroes, Black-Americans, Afro-Americans) successfully change what they’d like to be called about every 10 years, and everyone goes along with it. Two changes in 43 years, one of them not all that successful, after a couple of hundred years with no real change, does not quite qualify as “every ten years,” and the distinction from “donarbea” is that they selected the change rather than having it imposed from outside. (In fact, one of the better arguments against “Native American” has nothing to do with the rather weak complaint against ambiguity and everything to do with it being imposed by people outside the group.) Note that among your catalogue, “Negro” and “colored” were used equally by all of society for a very long time and “people of color” and “Afro-Americans” were suggestions that never made it out of a few rhetorical circles. I have never even seen a serious effort for “American Negroes” or “Black-Americans” and they certainly never made it into general use. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/78 "2010-08-14T12:28:54Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > I have the solution. We’ll call them donarbea for “descendents of north american residents before europeans arrived”. Sorry. Thought the :rolleyes: 😃 and :dubious: were implied. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/79 "2010-08-14T18:37:52Z")
> [@Bernieyeball](#): > > I always get grief when I pose this question but I think it is a reasonable inquiry. > I suspect the humans who inhabited this continent before the arrival of Europeans did not call it North America or America. > How can they be Native “Americans”? Especially since they came across the Bering land bridge and migrated southwards. OMFG!!! They were illegal immigrants!!! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918/80 "2010-08-14T20:45:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > > [@Bernieyeball](#): > > > > I always get grief when I pose this question but I think it is a reasonable inquiry. > > I suspect the humans who inhabited this continent before the arrival of Europeans did not call it North America or America. > > How can they be Native “Americans”? > > Especially since they came across the Bering land bridge and migrated southwards. > > OMFG!!! They were illegal immigrants!!! You think thats funny ? Let me tell you that the incursion of non aboriginals into the Americas hasn’t exactly worked out for the aboriginals. Every immigrant (and I’m an immigrant) simply has a netgative impact on their quality of life that they would have had without us Europeans. Or Asians Or the Africans for that matter, who were willing enough to work as slaves for the whites and thereby justifierd their existence in the new world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-native-americans/549918.md?page=5)