I agree with this – Trump worked to get that second spot, and he deserves it – he earned it.
In fact, I think he ought to get a special allowance and get all five positions.
Trump worst obviously. I’d support 1st and 2nd term as slots 1 and 2, but the OP says no.
Dubya has to be next. The Iraq invasion was a singularly heinous act that is entirely his doing. You could even argue he should come top for that. No one act of Trump compares to the Iraq invasion (yet 
). But he’s also a pretty terrible president generally even without the Iraq invasion.
Andrew Jackson is next. The trail of tears alone is enough to put him here. But as with Dubya he was a pretty terrible president even without the Trail of Tears.
Buchanan. Not solely responsible for the civil war but responsible enough (and general an arsehole about it, including getting a heads up how the Dred Scott decision was going to go, and running on how great that would be)
Andrew Johnson. Largely responsible for the failure of reconstruction and injustice that led from that.
I’m not sure of myself when I condemn one sorry-ass chief executive for a specific act; and not just because “that was how people were back then, we can’t hold them to today’s standards (since that doesn’t hold water: example - Mark Twain and others saw how anti-American was our “Americanization” of the Philippines. Many other examples).
W. Bush started a needless war with long term consequences. Well, so did Abe Lincoln. Arguably, the South and its slave economy would have collapsed and been readmitted in a generation or two, without the bitterness that still shows up in American politics. Wilson kicked all the African Americans off the federal payroll. But Ike did the same to homosexuals (again the word “arguably” enters the conversation. Me, I put Ike in my top ten)
It’s one thing to believe in oneself and have the courage of one’s convictions. But that’s entirely different from egomaniacal steamrolling. That’s the fatal flaw of Wilson, LBJ and Trump
While LBJ deserves a lot of blame for Vietnam, and it’s clearly one of the worst (if not the worst) things the US has done, I don’t think he bares as much blame as Dubya because…
- He just escalated US involvement in an existing war. The Iraq war was entirely the fault of the bush administration.
- It was primarily about helping a US ally (albeit a puppet ally that only existed because of the US). The Iraq was a flat out invasion and occupation of another country simply because Dubya wanted to.
I know you didn’t mean this…but this came across as being okay with millions of people spending their entire lives as property.
Again, I know it wasn’t your intention.
You might as well say “well how can you call Trump bad but not FDR because they are both humans that breath oxygen”
I would include James K. Polk in there somewhere for provoking the Mexican-American war and stealing a third of Mexico’s land while planning to steal half the remainder as well, mainly as a defense of slavery. Sure, we got Texas and California out of it, as well as some lesser states, but stealing is wrong.
The enslaved in the Confederacy were emancipated by force. Their counterparts in Brazil did indeed suffer enslavement for another two generations.
Now name Brazil’s Emmett Till, Medgar Evers, Tamir Rice…
Brazil’s history, while having some parallels to that of the US, is distinct.
This is not the thread to discuss this. I’ll link to one from about a year ago, in case anyone cares to continue this.
Okay, I found it — a couple of posts in a thread. Maybe start a new thread if you care to discuss this more.
There seems to be a lot of hate for Nixon, but I’m not sure he was THAT bad.
He just broke the 11th commandment “Thou Shall not be Found Out”….
There have probably been a lot of dirty tricks by others that have never been washed in public, or at least not so much. Kennedy’s philanderings, for example…
I’m amazed. Just guessing, but would both of you all be Boomers? I’m Gen X, born in 1977, so I obviously don’t have any first hand experience of Vietnam, but I don’t get how it even comes close to being one of the worst (or maybe even the worst) things that the US has done. A quick google search shows that there were something like 50K American deaths and about 150K wounded. The Vietnamese casualties were higher, from what I can gather probably around 2 million (although my guess is a sizable majority of those probably happened on Nixon’s watch). Yes, that’s a bad number, but in the end Vietnam is now a fairly decent country to live in, they ended up as an ally of the US, and overall doesn’t rank on the list of “hot spots” with ongoing major problems. WRT the worst we’ve ever done during wartime, the vast majority of the POTUSs between Jackson and Buchanan (inclusive), did way more harm to the Native Americans than LBJ did to Vietnamese civilians.
FWIW I have LBJ ranked as the 3rd best POTUS, after Washington and Lincoln. To use RPG ranking terminology, IMHO Washington and Lincoln are the only two S level POTUSs. LBJ is at the top of the A+ tier, with the Roosevelts a close 4th and 5th.
I would almost consider asking who are the bottom 5 except him because I really do see him as not only the worst, but the worst by a huge margin. I wanted to be objective, but even looking at all the presidents as objectively as possible, I can’t see him being anywhere but the bottom.
I believe in 100 years, he will be seen as the worst…unless something even more monstrous comes along.
How did Abe Lincoln start a war? The Slavers’ Revolt began with an attack on federal territory by some other guys.
This. IMHO what makes him the worst is that his sins are being committed against Americans and the United States itself. Jackson did terrible things to the Cherokee, Seminole, etc. Bush Jr. did terrible things the Iraqis. Nixon did terrible things to Laotians and Cambodians. Polk did terrible things to Mexicans. I’m sure we can list several other POTUSs who did other terrible things to other people from foreign nations. But up until Trump (and barring slavery, that’s a whole other discussion), we had never had a POTUS that has purposely done things to hurt Americans and make the United States a worse place just for the sheer pleasure of being a cruel person who enjoys hurting others.
Also if we accept that the war was started by Lincoln, in what way was it unnecessary?
The precedent that if you don’t like the results of an election you can just secede would have been very pernicious to democracy.
Add to that that they were revolting in the name of an monstrous an inhumane cause and the war was by no means “unnecessary”.
The Cherokee and Seminole, etc. were the quintessential Americans. I’d say more but this isn’t the Pit.
I think he meant “US Citizens”, not sure if that changes the moral equation though.
Clearly they were people native to the land that is now part of the United States. But they were foreign people from the perspective of USAians, and the various unjust wars, genocides, etc., during the 19th century were just that, unjust foreign wars and genocides. They weren’t civil wars, one USAian against other USAians. That’s what I meant. I’m certainly not defending Jackson, Polk, etc. They were horrible presidents that did horrible things. But what Trump is doing is another level beyond that.
Right. That is what I meant. Does it change the moral equation? In my opinion it does. To use a smaller scale, IMHO the person who breaks into their neighbor’s home, kills them, and steals their things has done a terrible thing. The person who kills their own spouse, parents, and children just because they enjoy being cruel is even worse.
The whole point of keeping Fort Sumter manned was to get the South Carolina hotheads to fire the first shot.