Who are the 5 worst U.S. Presidents?

Politics & Elections
121

Yup and the trail of tears stands out as a heinous atrocity, even when compared to those other activities

I’m not saying it’s the one that example of mistreatment of native Americans and other than that they have been treated perfectly well by the American government and it’s people. I’m saying that it’s a uniquely appalling act even within the context of the general mistreatment of native Americans by the United States

Tens of thousands of native Americans were expelled by the Indian Removal act and a large percentage (maybe a quarter of them) died as a direct result. That’s not just “business as usual” even in the terrible history of native Americans in the US.

122

For the Act, not the Trail of Tears. Natives have been moved without the mass casualties. The Trail was Van Buren.

Right.

123

Finding good numbers for native deaths is virtually impossible, complicated by the reality that most deaths were due to disease rather than direct kills.

AI summarized deaths with good sources.

  • Indian Wars and Massacres: The U.S. Census Bureau in 1894 [ Report on Indians taxed and Indians not taxed in the United States (except Alaska)] estimated around 30,000 Native American deaths and 19,000 white deaths occurred in over 40 conflicts classified as “Indian wars”. More specific studies document thousands killed in localized massacres, such as the estimated 9,400 to 16,000 California Indians killed by non-Indians between 1846 and 1873 during the California Genocide [California genocide - Wikipedia].

“Murders and massacres filled the archives,” he said. “Official records made it plain that the state and federal governments spent more than $1,700,000 — a huge amount of money at that time — on campaigns against California Indians.”

These were not official military campaigns, which provide a different number.

“In my Encyclopedia of Indian Wars,” writes Greg Michno, “I go over the casualties (Army, civilian and Indian; killed and wounded) in 675 fights from 1850-90. There were 21,586 total. Army and civilian totaled 6,596 (31 percent), and Indians 14,990 (69 percent). These are casualties, so deaths are more likely 30-35 percent of the total.

Also see:

If we are comparing deaths due to disease and starvation, the native population declined by 350,000 during the 19th century, and “natural” deaths constituted the vast bulk of this decline, along with vastly lowered birth rates.

The Trail of Tears is usually reported at 4,000 deaths from “natural” causes, although the entire expulsion of southern tribes is at least twice that.

I dislike trying to compare the awfulness of a single large event to a century filled with constant but smaller events. Both are wrong.

You are completely in your rights to uniquely condemn Jackson. We’re just offering opinions here. I’m merely offering some context.

124

Not in those numbers in that era. The act made the trail of tears inevitable. Maybe a better implementation meant only 20% died en route not 25% but it was always going to be an unprecedented atrocity in US history. And it was Jackson’s doing.

125

Exactly my point. The native Americans were the victim of a slow decimation over centuries that all the POTUSes and other American civilian and military leaders bear responsibility for

Even given that background the Trail of Tears stands out as a uniquely heinous atrocity that Jackson specifically was responsible for.

126

Again, not Jackson, Van Buren.

127

Again no. Jackson caused the trail of tears. The implementation of the indian removal act made it worse, but it was always going to be an actrocity. That atrocity was the entirely foreseeable result of the Indian Removal act. If it killed 20% of the expelled native Americans not 25% it would still have been an atrocity

128

Moderating:

Echoing Aspenglow from upthread, but the ongoing sidetrack on Jackson and the Trail of tears is taking over the thread. Arguing the exact combination of factors that lead to it, and the comparative blame is worthy of it’s own thread (hint, hint) but here it’s becoming a hijack. Not totally off topic, but taking over the thread. Citing examples of bad presidential behavior is fine and expected for your argument of the top five, but let’s avoid further extended sidetracks.

How to Reply as a linked Topic

Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, looks like a curving arrow point to the right.

Choose Reply as linked topic and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it.

That is actually the best method.

129

Truman also integrated the military

130

But I thought I read somewhere that Nixon had a form of ACA that was killed by Ted Kennedy AIRI

131

A very good point. I should have added that to my post.

132

I am not a historian, so I don’t know exacts, but I do recall that Nixon was playing with the idea of socialized medicine, NOT ACA-style “insurance for all”. Cannot speak as to why it failed or if someone “killed” it.

One of the biggest differences between Trump and Nixon is that Nixon actually wanted to govern the nation, rather than enrich himself.

133

I think of Nixon as an illiberal progressive. Trump, of course, is a regressive, and in that sense doesn’t have much at all in common with Nixon in terms of how they govern(ed). Personality wise they do share some traits, but there’s a lot of other areas where they diverge, not the least being that Nixon was intelligent (it wouldn’t surprise me if Nixon was the highest IQ POTUS) and competent, areas in which Trump is lacking.

134

The only healcare reforms I’m aware of from Nixon is the HMO act he said this about it on tape:

Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”

President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”

President Nixon: “Not bad.”

135

He was also seriously considering moving the drug war from a law enforcement to a healthcare.matter, albeit only because he realized the number of white veterans that were returning from Vietnam with a heroin addiction. IIRC it failed because the same people involved in the effort were also the ones involved in CREEP so had other other things on their schedule when Watergate exploded, so the effort came to nothing and the drug war, as a law enforcement effort, stayed.

136

I just remembered George W Bush setting up free speech zones, before that the whole country was a free speech zone.