# Who are the Gypsies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 26, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517 "2007-06-26T20:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/1 "2007-06-26T20:16:14Z")
[http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgypsies.htm](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgypsies.htm) Great Staff Report - I learned a lot. Joe Haldeman wrote a great near-future science fiction/horror story about the Gypsies called “Armaja Das,” and it gibed with much of what was contained in the report. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/2 "2007-06-26T20:22:44Z")
Thanks. This was a tough one to write. Thanks to \*\*silenus \*\* and \*\*Ed Zotti \*\*, and also to Ian Hancock, who took the time to respond to my emails. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/3 "2007-06-26T20:23:44Z")
That’s really interesting. I thought they were Roma, not Romani; either could be comfused with both Romanians and Romans… I always thought Gypsies were semi-mythical people from fairy tales, and for the longest time did not know that they really exsisted. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/4 "2007-06-26T20:28:30Z")
There are variations in usage. In _We Are the Romani People_, Hancock points out that many groups restrict the use of Rom or Roma to their own subpopulation, but would call all of the ethnically-related groups Romani. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/5 "2007-06-26T20:37:04Z")
In the interest of Truth, it must be noted that my contribution to the Report totaled about a paragraph and a half. **Gfactor** did all the work. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/6 "2007-06-26T23:31:56Z")
Congrats, anyhow, to both of you! ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/7 "2007-06-27T00:06:11Z")
One of the better Staff Reports, certainly. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/8 "2007-06-27T00:21:00Z")
An awesome report! Are there any documentaries that provide a good depiction of contemporary Gypsies/Romani? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/9 "2007-06-27T00:41:33Z")
The film [Montenegro](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082770/) is a good story mostly set in a group of Yugoslavian gypsies, but it’s by no means a documentary. Definitely worth your while though. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/10 "2007-06-27T00:49:17Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] An awesome report! Are there any documentaries that provide a good depiction of contemporary Gypsies/Romani? [/QUOTE] This one is pretty good: [http://www.americangypsy.com/](http://www.americangypsy.com/) And Tony Gatlif’s [Tony Gatlif - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Gatlif) movies, though not documentaries, are supposed to be pretty good depictions. Latcho Drom [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107376/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107376/) is mostly music and dance, and seems very authentic. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/11 "2007-06-27T01:00:57Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] In the interest of Truth, it must be noted that my contribution to the Report totaled about a paragraph and a half. **Gfactor** did all the work. [/QUOTE] Hey c’mon man. Tony Orlando needed Dawn and \*\*GFactor \*\* needed you. 😛 The important thing is that it was your name up there in lights, even if just for today. Congrats to you both on an excellent report. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/12 "2007-06-27T02:35:56Z")
One thing that is not dealt with in the report is the sentimentalization of the Gypsy-as-minstrel in Austria, from _Der Zigeunerbaron_ (_The Gypsy Baron_) and _Zigeunerliebe_ (_Gypsy Love_) to _Der Zigeunerprimas_ (hard to translate well – _The Gypsy Violin Leader_) and the throwaway line from _Gräfin Mariza_ (_Countess Maritza_), “When they heard I was engaged, my friends all came to congratulate me with champagne and Gypsies!” _Der Zigeunerprimas_ is especially interesting because the title character is plainly portrayed as a respectable middle-class professional musician. ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/13 "2007-06-27T07:34:12Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] In the interest of Truth, it must be noted that my contribution to the Report totaled about a paragraph and a half. **Gfactor** did all the work. [/QUOTE] Did you get a mug? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/14 "2007-06-27T07:52:53Z")
It’s worth noting that it’s not just eastern Europe that is anti-Gypsy. In East Anglia you only need suggest that Travellers are on their way to an area to send the local middle-classes into paroxisms of fear and opposition. > **[BBC NEWS | UK | Rural England, Gypsies and land reform](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3635872.stm)** > > Rows over traveller encampments have grown in the past year - but is there hope of change for the better? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/15 "2007-06-27T11:12:53Z")
Excellent report. I will say that here in BG, we say “Roma” not “Romani”. (Well, those of us PC enough to care, most people just say “tsigani”.) I have a vague idea that these terms aren’t synonymous…are the Roma a subset of the Romani? ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/16 "2007-06-27T11:31:10Z")
[QUOTE=Kyla] are the Roma a subset of the Romani? [/QUOTE] Kinda. Easiest way to think of it is that Romani is an adjective that’s used even by groups that wouldn’t identify as Roma: The Sinti, for example, will acknowledge being Romani but can get annoyed at being referred to as Roma. By way of analogy, one wouldn’t refer to all Jews as being Ashkenazi but both they and the Shepardic are Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/17 "2007-06-27T12:18:43Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] One thing that is not dealt with in the report is the sentimentalization of the Gypsy-as-minstrel in Austria, from _Der Zigeunerbaron_ (_The Gypsy Baron_) and _Zigeunerliebe_ (_Gypsy Love_) to _Der Zigeunerprimas_ (hard to translate well – _The Gypsy Violin Leader_) and the throwaway line from _Gräfin Mariza_ (_Countess Maritza_), “When they heard I was engaged, my friends all came to congratulate me with champagne and Gypsies!” _Der Zigeunerprimas_ is especially interesting because the title character is plainly portrayed as a respectable middle-class professional musician. [/QUOTE] There’s also a song in _Die Fledermaus_ that plays on this stereotype, although I’m slightly brainfarting right at the moment and despite having played Dr Falke only three years ago I can’t think of the name. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/18 "2007-06-27T12:33:41Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] It’s worth noting that it’s not just eastern Europe that is anti-Gypsy. In East Anglia you only need suggest that Travellers are on their way to an area to send the local middle-classes into paroxisms of fear and opposition. > **[BBC NEWS | UK | Rural England, Gypsies and land reform](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3635872.stm)** > > Rows over traveller encampments have grown in the past year - but is there hope of change for the better? [/QUOTE] On the other hand, the same article also mentioned that the villagers had got on perfectly well with 30 Gypsy families for decades, so at least some travellers don’t provoke paroxysms of anything. There’s often a distinction drawn in English minds between “Gypsies” (Romanies, whatever) who are filed under “ancient people with different traditional folkways, keep themselves to themselves, don’t usually cause trouble, may practise a little petty theft but are all right if you don’t tempt them, you may hardly notice them” and other Travellers who are associated with going around in big flashy cars and caravans, violence, rowdiness, burglary, bullying pensioners into drive-tarmacing scams and leaving mounds of rubbish behind them when they go - indeed, even living amid piles of squalor when they’re around (which is something no “Gypsy” - previous usage - would ever do). This may be a “No True Gypsy” fallacy and both perceptions may be equally incorrect, but they seem to be widely held judging from the East Anglians I personally know. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/19 "2007-06-27T13:50:46Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] On the other hand, the same article also mentioned that the villagers had got on perfectly well with 30 Gypsy families for decades, so at least some travellers don’t provoke paroxysms of anything. There’s often a distinction drawn in English minds between “Gypsies” (Romanies, whatever) who are filed under “ancient people with different traditional folkways, keep themselves to themselves, don’t usually cause trouble, may practise a little petty theft but are all right if you don’t tempt them, you may hardly notice them” and other Travellers who are associated with going around in big flashy cars and caravans, violence, rowdiness, burglary, bullying pensioners into drive-tarmacing scams and leaving mounds of rubbish behind them when they go - indeed, even living amid piles of squalor when they’re around (which is something no “Gypsy” - previous usage - would ever do). This may be a “No True Gypsy” fallacy and both perceptions may be equally incorrect, but they seem to be widely held judging from the East Anglians I personally know. [/QUOTE] Kinda like the Brad Pitt character in _Snatch_? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517/20 "2007-06-27T14:00:39Z")
In Britain and Ireland, Irish travellers are treated negatively with a variety of derogatory terms including _tinker_, _pikey_, and _knacker_. Travellers are stereotypically seen as illiterate, filthy, trashy, and as beggars, thieves and conmen. There’s an interesting film about a young Irish Traveller girl called [Pavee Lackeen](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469691/) that’s worth a look. For more information on Irish Travellers check out [Pavee Point](http://www.paveepoint.ie/) . There’s an American film about Irish travellers in the US called funnily enough [Traveller](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120366/) that I haven’t seen. [Gadje Dilo](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0122082/) is a lovely film about a man visiting a Roma community. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-gypsies/409517.md?page=2)