# Who are the protesters in Spain, Italy, Greece, & Portugal protesting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981 "2012-11-14T14:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/1 "2012-11-14T14:46:21Z")
Widespread organized protesting throughout many European countries today over austerity measures which include government spending cutbacks and higher taxes. Who are these people protesting? Themselves as a country? Do they not realize their respective countries are broke or on the brink of being broke. Do they expect Germany to step up and cover their own economic shortfalls? Are they so self centered that they believe they are entitled to their continued government programs even when the country cannot afford to continue them? I don’t get it from a psychological stand point. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/2 "2012-11-14T14:52:36Z")
They are protesting because they feel that the response to the problem of a budget shortfall is putting the pain on the wrong people. And many feel that the austerity solution is short-sighted, and will result in the economy tanking. You can recognize the problem and see a need for action but not agree on the course of action being enforced. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/3 "2012-11-14T14:56:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > putting the pain on the wrong people. Who are the right people to put the pain on? Clearly Greece can no longer to allow people at the age of 50 to retire and receive a government pension for the remainder of their lives. Taxes are going up across the board in these countries. And with regard to resulting in their economies tanking…that already happened. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/4 "2012-11-14T14:58:44Z")
How about the fact that they are experiencing unemployment rates well over 10% compared to 4 years ago and austerity isn’t helping? I mean 4 years ago unemployment in Spain was 8% and now it’s 25%. [Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal unemployment](http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:es&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+spain#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:es:el:it:pt&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false) Oh this is neat - here the[Debt as % of GDP](http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=ds22a34krhq5p_&hl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:it:el:es:pt&idim=country_group:non-eu&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en_US&ind=false) as well. Note the lack of out of control spending in Spain - Greece is it’s own particular brand of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/5 "2012-11-14T15:32:29Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Who are the right people to put the pain on? I believe they are protesting that average wage earners, who have already been victimized by the situation, are ending up paying more plus having homes taken in foreclosure, etc. They suggest that big banks and major businesses should be feeling more of the pain, as well as the more well-to-do. I have no idea if that is the right approach, but to my understanding that is the protesters argument. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/6 "2012-11-14T15:41:44Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I believe they are protesting that average wage earners, who have already been victimized by the situation, are ending up paying more plus having homes taken in foreclosure, etc. They suggest that big banks and major businesses should be feeling more of the pain, as well as the more well-to-do. > > I have no idea if that is the right approach, but to my understanding that is the protesters argument. Yep…that and The Rich™. Despite the fact that politicians in multiple countries are sticking to their guns in the face of growing protest, the protesters think (rightfully or wrongfully) that ‘austerity’ measures don’t work and are hurting the poor and working classes, and feel that they need to be abandoned in favor of…um…something else. Probably increased national borrowing (from who?) to jump start their economies (and give them back jobs and benefits) while soaking the banks and the rich for the money needed to theoretically do all this. It will be a ‘have cake and eat it too’ situation in the minds of many protesters…not only will they get back what they feel they have lost but they will also be able to soak the banks AND the rich to make it happen…win/win! ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/7 "2012-11-14T16:03:30Z")
So basically this… > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Are they so self centered that they believe they are entitled to their continued government programs even when the country cannot afford to continue them? Majority of the banks in these countries are also in trouble. Most of their investments are in government bonds which are near worthless now. There are not enough Rich ™ in these countries to tax and make up for the entitlement programs. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/8 "2012-11-14T16:08:13Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > So basically this… > > Majority of the banks in these countries are also in trouble. Most of their investments are in government bonds which are near worthless now. There are not enough Rich ™ in these countries to tax and make up for the entitlement programs. Sure, but that logic isn’t going to cut any ice with most of these protesters. Like in this country, they want easy, simple answers to complex problems…and, optimally, answers that won’t cost them anything, while sticking it to the people they have been told for generations are the real people at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/9 "2012-11-14T16:23:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Like in this country, they want easy, simple answers to complex problems…and, optimally, answers that won’t cost them anything, while sticking it to the people they have been told for generations are the real people at fault. That’s my fear. We are potentially headed down this path as a country as well. I personally am okay with a tax increase, and a commensurate reduction in entitlement spending. But the far left and the far right do not appear willing to give up their respective pieces of cake. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/10 "2012-11-14T16:36:11Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > That’s my fear. We are potentially headed down this path as a country as well. I personally am okay with a tax increase, and a commensurate reduction in entitlement spending. But the far left and the far right do not appear willing to give up their respective pieces of cake. Except the well-off in these countries continue to not pay their taxes and hide wealth away. [Greek Tax Avoidance](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/09/greece-tax-evasion-professional-classes) > [@](#): > > Supporting the view that Greece is beyond helping itself, an in-depth study of how Greek banks, politicians and professional workers behave was published last week by two economists from the Booth school of business at the University of Chicago and a Greek academic based at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute. > > Interestingly, their report, Tax Evasion Across Industries: Soft Credit Evidence From Greece, which documents the hidden, non-taxed economy, blames the current malaise not on dodgy taxi drivers or moonlighting refuse collectors, but on the professional classes. > > They found that €28bn (£22.4bn) of tax was evaded in 2009 by self-employed people alone. > > As GDP that year was €235bn and the total tax base was just €98bn, it is clear that this was a significant sum. At a tax rate of 40%, it amounted to almost half the country’s budget deficit in 2008, and 31% in 2009. > > The chief offenders are professionals in medicine, engineering, education, accounting, financial services and law. Among the self-employed documented in the report are accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers. Ans the tax-evaders are the Government. Witness the recent case of the arrest of a journalist who published a list of 300 rich tax evaders the govt had ‘lost’. And who remain uninvestigated. > [@](#): > > The Greeks have begun to crack down on tax evasion. Only this weekend, raids on 11 people found tens of millions of euros’ worth of undeclared property and assets in New York, London and various offshore tax havens. > > The Greek finance ministry’s financial crimes unit conducted the raids, and says it has many other groups in its sights. > > However, broader attempts to crack down on the professions were blocked last year by the Greek parliament. MPs voted against a bill mandating tax audits on people who had incomes below a minimum threshold. The bill targeted 11 professions, including vets, architects, engineers, economists, doctors, lawyers and accountants. > > The authors found, almost as an aside to their central examination of tax evasion, that the occupations represented in parliament “are very much those that evade tax, even beyond lawyers”. > > They said: “Half of non-lawyer parliamentarians are in the top three tax-evading industries, and nearly a super-majority in the top four evading industries.” It’s no wonder that the ordinary people - the ones that have no choice but to pay their taxes - are angry. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/11 "2012-11-14T16:40:30Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sure, but that logic isn’t going to cut any ice with most of these protesters. Like in this country, they want easy, simple answers to complex problems…and, optimally, answers that won’t cost them anything, while sticking it to the people they have been told for generations are the real people at fault. Did you have a chance to review US Budget for FY 2013? About 60% is mandatory - medicare, SS and military retirement. Fine. Remaining 40% - two thirds go to military spending. What remains is Health and Human Services, the Department of Education, and Housing and Urban Development that have to share remaining $410 billion. All the while interest payment on 15T debt is more than half of that - $248B. The only difference between those protestors in Europe and non-protestors in US is that somehow average American is convinced that Americans are better people b/c Americans manage money better. There you have it… military spending that you cannot touch - democrat, republican or any other type - and interest payment on ever growing debt, interest that you should not have to pay but Feds tell you that’s the way to do it. Pretty soon interest payment will be more than money you pay for three big departments. And you blame some Joe Blow who wants everything free while facts show exactly WHO gets everything free while blame-game goes circle jerk round and around. And that’s only federal budget. BTW - things got complex for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/12 "2012-11-14T16:43:01Z")
**Omar** , how would you feel if your pay (whatever work you were doing) was going to be drastically cut, although your rent (mortgage, or whatever) and the price of food and other things would remain the same, or increase? Would you be angry with the people who were reducing your pay, maybe? Desperate, maybe? Or would you shrug and say “OK, if that is what the economic situation requires, I and my family will starve on the street”? (Or even “OK, for the sake of ‘the economy’, me and my family will be content to live in far worse conditions than what we have been used to”?) Frankly, if that is how you would respond, I don’t think I could have much respect for you. Incidentally, you do realize, do you, that a fucked up economy and a national debt does not mean that there is not enough food in the world to feed everyone, or that there are suddenly not enough buildings to shelter them any more. It just means that the method previously used for distributing those (and other) goods to the people who need them (be it a capitalistic market, a socialist command economy, or whatever) has gotten all screwed up. There is lots of room for legitimate disagreement about how it ought to be fixed, and most people, very understandably, do not like the idea that it should be at their expense. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/13 "2012-11-14T16:50:06Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Did you have a chance to review US Budget for FY 2013? > > About 60% is mandatory - medicare, SS and military retirement. Fine. > > Remaining 40% - two thirds go to military spending. What remains is Health and Human Services, the Department of Education, and Housing and Urban Development that have to share remaining $410 billion. All the while interest payment on 15T debt is more than half of that - $248B. > > The only difference between those protestors in Europe and non-protestors in US is that somehow average American is convinced that Americans are better people b/c Americans manage money better. > > There you have it… military spending that you cannot touch - democrat, republican or any other type - and interest payment on ever growing debt, interest that you should not have to pay but Feds tell you that’s the way to do it. > > Pretty soon interest payment will be more than money you pay for three big departments. > > And you blame some Joe Blow who wants everything free while facts show exactly WHO gets everything free while blame-game goes circle jerk round and around. > > And that’s only federal budget. > > BTW - things got complex for a reason. They always were complex, and people always want the other guy to pay the lions share to get us out of any problems we are in…or the other side to cut up their sacred cows for lunch while leaving their own inviolate. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/14 "2012-11-14T16:52:32Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > That’s my fear. We are potentially headed down this path as a country as well. I personally am okay with a tax increase, and a commensurate reduction in entitlement spending. But the far left and the far right do not appear willing to give up their respective pieces of cake. No you’re not. The US has complete control of it’s economy while not a single one of these countries does. The Spanish cannot devalue their currency to pull in external investment and drive up exports. They can’t drive a control inflation cycle to drop debt to GDP levels because the mechanisms to do that resides outside of their control. To manage spikes in bond rates they turn to the ECB/IMF where in exchange for austerity they get money. However the austerity kills GDP resulting in less revenue making it harder/impossible to bring stability or growth to their economies. Ideally the fiscal austerity would be offset by an expansion in exports driven by a drop in the currency but in these cases the currency hasn’t dropped. So growth stalls, bond prices spike, countries struggle to meet debt covering costs and go deeper into debt. Hell, even the IMF says in Otober 2012 > [@](#): > > Accordingly, frontloading consolidations during a recession seems to aggravate the costs of fiscal adjustment in terms of output loss, while it seems to greatly delay the reduction in the debt-to-GDP ratio—which, in turn, can exacerbate market sentiment in a sovereign at times of low confidence, defying fiscal austerity efforts altogether. Again this is even truer in the case of consolidations based prominently on cuts to public spending. So the protestors likely have a number or complaints that are legitimate or not. But it seems the underlying thrust is - citizens are suffering due to government policy and it looks like that policy will continue to fail and inflict suffering and they would like a different policy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/15 "2012-11-14T17:03:07Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Except the well-off in these countries continue to not pay their taxes and hide wealth away. [/QUOTE] I remember using a cite in another thread like this that pretty much showed this is bullshit…well, that’s not right. What it showed, in Greece at least, is that pretty much EVERYONE avoided taxes through a truly bewildering array of dodges, especially the self employed dodge…and that was professional, the wealthy, and everyone else. No one was paying their rightful amount of taxes…which was and still is one of the big reasons Greece is in such straights now. Any article that claims that it’s merely one segment of the population in Greece doing this, and then going on to point the finger at the banking institutions as 'Greek banks are at the centre of the problem, as in Italy and Spain, where bankers perpetuate all the worst corrupt practices" is, right off the bat going to raise my own bullshit detector, since I’ve read a lot about this and the consensus seems to be that there are systemic problems in Greece that run from the poorest to the richest, from the private sector to the government and everything in-between. > [@](#): > > It’s no wonder that the ordinary people - the ones that have no choice but to pay their taxes - are angry. Except in Greece, ordinary people WEREN’T paying their full taxes either…and it was the banks (and investors), especially banks in other countries in the EU who were ‘asked’ to take the now famous ‘hair cut’. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/16 "2012-11-14T17:10:55Z")
I think Greece is sufficiently bonkers it should have it’s own thread. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/17 "2012-11-14T17:13:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I remember using a cite in another thread like this that pretty much showed this is bullshit…well, that’s not right. What it showed, in Greece at least, is that pretty much EVERYONE avoided taxes through a truly bewildering array of dodges, especially the self employed dodge…and that was professional, the wealthy, and everyone else. Employees have tax deducted at source. Whether the employer then pockets it is another question but the ordinary worker has paid. and if banks were stupid enough to lend then, tough shit. That’s their fault. They can’t expect the reward and then expect the public to pick up the tab when they get it wrong. But yes, tax evasion does go on at all levels if people can get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/18 "2012-11-14T17:19:52Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Employees have tax deducted at source. Whether the employer then pockets it is another question but the ordinary worker has paid. Whether that’s always true or not, a lot of people listed themselves as self employed, and thus got out of much or in some cases all of their taxes…and this wasn’t just The Rich™ doing it, or even professional level (lawyers, doctors, etc) folks either, but a large percentage of the population. The banks actually modified how they would calculate loans based on this, it was so systemic a problem. The vast majority of the Greek people, poor, middle class and rich, AND their political parties dug themselves into this mess…and yeah, right now it totally sucks, especially for the poorer citizens because they are the ones out of work when services are being cut. And yeah, that’s why they are protesting, not just in Greece but in the other countries listed too. Obviously, not all of those countries got themselves into the mess the same way Greece did, and it’s pretty ugly, no doubt about that. I can certainly see why people are protesting. The trouble is, there isn’t any quick fix for most of these countries problems, and it’s not going to be easy either…but that’s what these folks want. A quick and easy fix that hopefully has someone else feeling the pain. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/19 "2012-11-14T17:21:45Z")
More info. [Economist Report](http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/09/tax-evasion-greece) The chart is very informative but won’t copy. > [@](#): > > Stripping out lawyers, who have a disproportionately nasty habit of becoming politicians, the three most tax-dodging professions account for about half the votes among Greek MPs. That, the authors say, might explain a lack of political willpower on the issue of tax evasion. Greek tax evasion is an emotive subject. There is evidence that self-employed people tend to underreport their income everywhere, not just in southern Europe. The paper suggests that the most egregious behaviour happens higher up the wealth ladder, so ordinary Greeks may be more deserving of Ms Lagarde’s sympathy. [Another report](http://insidegreece.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/for-sweet-dreams-evasion-and-avoidance/) > [@](#): > > As outlined in the previous piece about Lagarde, roughly two-thirds of the Greek work force are taxed at source and cannot evade their income tax or social security contributions. The same goes for more than 2 million pensioners. But as they are easy targets it is to them that the pain is being dished out to. Of course they are pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981/20 "2012-11-14T17:41:23Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > I think Greece is sufficiently bonkers it should have it’s own thread. Except that many of the things that are wrong with Greece are the same things that are wrong in Italy and Spain. Sicily and other parts of southern Italy are if anything worse than Greece in all the issues that makes Greece bonkers. More than an economic crisis, it is a political crisis. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-protesters-in-spain-italy-greece-portugal-protesting/640981.md?page=2)