# Who are the riders of San Francisco cable cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390 "2015-08-09T17:47:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/41 "2015-08-11T02:56:55Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > the first cars came from Seattle when they no longer wanted them. I would guess by now many of those cars have been retired. Do you by any chance have a cite for this? San Francisco’s [Clay Street Hill Railroad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Street_Hill_Railroad) was the first successful cable car line in the world, starting in August 1873. “[In all, twenty-three lines were established between 1873 and 1890.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_cable_car_system)” Meanwhile, in Seattle: “[In 1884, a horse-drawn trolley between Occidental Avenue and Pike Street in downtown Seattle marked the beginning of public transit in the city.](http://thisbigcity.net/streetcars-make-a-return-to-seattle/)” No way did the SF cable car system start out using Seattle’s castoffs. Seattle did, however, [build many cable cars in the early 1900’s based on SF designs](http://www.cablecarmuseum.org/emerald-city.html). ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/42 "2015-08-11T03:31:43Z")
I was wondering how long the Seattle claim would take to be dismissed. The discussion re the machinery was about expanding the portions accessible to visitors. I once was driving on Nob Hill and saw a patch where the asphalt had been worn down, exposing the old rail lines. There was the distinctive slot between the rails - it had been a cable operation. How did SF government get into the cable business? As usual, once there was no more money to be made, the owners of the cables got the city to buy them. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/43 "2015-08-11T05:43:29Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > I once was driving on Nob Hill and saw a patch where the asphalt had been worn down, exposing the old rail lines. There was the distinctive slot between the rails - it had been a cable operation. There were many cable car lines in San Francisco; the three current lines being what remains of the system. At various other places, you can still see where the turntables were. There’s one near the old Post Office, which is near the Ferry Building end of Market Street but a few blocks on the South of Market side. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/44 "2015-11-26T18:19:18Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Note: the California Street line is not the one on the picture postcards - they simply run up California from the Embarcadero to Van Ness. No hills to crest, no cool pics to take. It is the most transit-like lines. What do you mean “no hills to crest”? Have you ever been on the California Street line east of Powell (say, in the Financial District) and traveled west to the crossing at Powell? You don’t call _that_ a hill? It’s about an 18 percent grade between Stockton and Powell! ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/45 "2015-11-26T18:22:17Z")
The Hyatt Regency hotel (ever see the Mel Brooks movie _High Anxiety?)_ is right next to the eastern terminus of Line 61–the California Street car. There used to be a swanky hotel (where I stayed once) near the west end, the Jack Tar. Sad to say, it’s gone. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/46 "2015-11-26T19:27:58Z")
99% tourists. It’s tourists all the way down… “Come to San Francisco and practice your German on the cable cars!” ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/47 "2015-11-26T21:00:41Z")
> [@digs](#): > > 99% tourists. It’s tourists all the way down… > “Come to San Francisco and practice your German on the cable cars!” One time I was there, I rode a car on Powell Street. There were German tourists on one side of me and French tourists on the other. Neither group spoke English. For most of the run from California Street to Market, I conversed with both groups, in their own language, alternately. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/48 "2015-11-26T21:10:41Z")
Anecdotally, the one time I rode a cable car I was a tourist, (since I’ve never lived in the Bay area,) but I didn’t really do it as a tourist, “hey that’d be fun” thing, it was more like “You know, I think that might help me get back to my hotel from here.” This was the first time I went to San Francisco, November of 2009, and my first full day after I arrived. I took a taxi up to the waterfront, went on a boat cruise out to the Golden Gate Bridge and around Alcatraz. Wandered around Fisherman’s Wharf, got some lunch, browsed at the Barnes and Noble for a little while, (this was before it closed,) and asked them to call me a cab. That cab never showed up. Not sure why. After waiting for over half an hour, I wandered around a bit more, and saw a crowd of people waiting at the cable car terminus for the Mason line. Now, I hadn’t prepared for getting around on the Muni or anything, but I could see that the cable car would go south, and I knew my hotel was generally in that direction. I even knew the east-west street my hotel was on, and that it would be east of south. So I waited for the cable car, got on, paid for my ticket, got off at Sutter street, turned left, and started walking. It turned a half an hour’s hike into an under 10 minute walk, and was the first step in my becoming familiar taking mass transit around the Bay area. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/49 "2015-11-26T23:21:03Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I can’t answer for San Francisco in particular but the streetcars in New Orleans (basically the same thing) are used by all groups including commuters, students and tourists. The St. Charles line from Uptown to the French Quarter is still a really cheap and charming route. I went to college there and streetcars were a preferred method of transportation as long as you were going roughly where they were. They aren’t especially fast but they are romantic in a throwback kind of way and they will get you fairly close to home 24 hours a day for the many people that live fairly close to a streetcar line. $1.25 one way beats a cab every time if you are on a budget and have 40 minutes to spare for the trip. The ambiance is infinitely better than any bus I have ever been on and streetcars don’t have to deal with most traffic either. That’s what I used to think about the streetcars still infesting some of the downtown streets in Toronto. I think the quaintness may be part of the reason for keeping them, but I was surprised to learn that they’re actually a good deal more efficient than buses. Not sure why, I think though they may be a bit narrower they’re also longer and carry more passengers. They’re definitely far more efficient on those routes where they have a dedicated right of way and can even run with a couple of them coupled together. Whereas the cable cars IIRC are pretty small. I’ve been on them but haven’t been to San Franscisco in years (unfortunately, because I love the place). But either as a local or a tourist I’d definitely vote to keep 'em! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/50 "2015-11-27T01:09:14Z")
They’d be more efficient than buses because they don’t need to carry their power source with them, and because there are economies of scale at the power source. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/51 "2015-11-27T01:45:04Z")
Not only that, but the cars descending hills (by the force of gravity, of course) pull on the cable and put energy back into the system. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/52 "2015-11-27T02:47:52Z")
For an amusing and informative read on cable car operation; [Tales from the Grip](http://www.cable-car-guy.com/html/cctftg.html) by long-time grip man Val Lupiz. Apparently ya gotta have a sense of humor to make it in that line of work… ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/53 "2015-11-27T02:53:31Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Not only that, but the cars descending hills (by the force of gravity, of course) pull on the cable and put energy back into the system. 🙂 Don’t think this is correct… AIUI, the cars coast downhill using two forms of brakes, with a backup emergency stopping mechanism that involves a wedge in the cable slot and brings the car to a _very_ abrupt stop. On the “California” style cars the braking responsibility is shared by both the gripman and conductor. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/54 "2015-11-27T04:00:50Z")
I think that’s right. Going downhill, they let go of the rope and coast, riding the brakes to control downhill speed. As for the remark **Chronos** made, that they don’t have to carry their power with them and the economies of scale of having the power at one source – it’s just electric power. San Francisco also has electric trolley cars (running underground in the downtown areas) that would have the same efficiencies. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/55 "2015-11-27T04:18:49Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Don’t think this is correct… AIUI, the cars coast downhill using two forms of brakes, with a backup emergency stopping mechanism that involves a wedge in the cable slot and brings the car to a _very_ abrupt stop. On the “California” style cars the braking responsibility is shared by both the gripman and conductor. I mean when the cars are actually moving along their routes downhill, especially on the long grades on Mason and Hyde streets (north side, Lines 59 and 60) on Russian Hill and California Street (east side, Line 61) on Nob Hill. I have watched the conductor on Powell cars constantly pushing the handle which controls the rear-truck wheel brakes. That “backup” brake, the slot brake, sometimes obliges the crew to send for welders with an acetylene torch, because friction can weld the brake wedge to the slot rails. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/56 "2015-11-27T15:23:57Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the remark Chronos made, that they don’t have to carry their power with them and the economies of scale of having the power at one source – it’s just electric power. San Francisco also has electric trolley cars (running underground in the downtown areas) that would have the same efficiencies. Yes, they would. I was just comparing them to buses, not to other forms of trolley. Cable cars might still be a bit more efficient than electric trolleys, since a cable grip is lighter than an electric motor, but then, there are probably a lot of other factors that go into the calculation that I’m neglecting. And I for one am surprised to hear that they release their grip on the cable when going downhill-- I’d have thought that the ability to counterweight the cable like that would have been the primary reason they went with cable cars, in hilly SF. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/57 "2015-11-27T16:25:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, they would. I was just comparing them to buses, not to other forms of trolley. Cable cars might still be a bit more efficient than electric trolleys, since a cable grip is lighter than an electric motor, but then, there are probably a lot of other factors that go into the calculation that I’m neglecting. > > And I for one am surprised to hear that they release their grip on the cable when going downhill-- I’d have thought that the ability to counterweight the cable like that would have been the primary reason they went with cable cars, in hilly SF. I’m surprised too. I never heard that they did such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/58 "2015-11-27T20:10:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, they would. I was just comparing them to buses, not to other forms of trolley. Cable cars might still be a bit more efficient than electric trolleys, since a cable grip is lighter than an electric motor, but then, there are probably a lot of other factors that go into the calculation that I’m neglecting. OTOH, that electricity that runs the cable cars also has to drag the weight of miles of cable plus fiction running the entire length-and-back of each line. There’s gotta be some cost to that. > [@](#): > > And I for one am surprised to hear that they release their grip on the cable when going downhill-- I’d have thought that the ability to counterweight the cable like that would have been the primary reason they went with cable cars, in hilly SF. Well, perhaps. I thought I read that they just coast downhill, but I could be remembering that incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/59 "2015-11-27T20:15:39Z")
BTW, my source for at least _some_ of my putative knowledge about cable cars (and in particular, about how they drop the cable when intersecting with another line): I lived for some years in a microscopic semi-rural town in the Central California Coast area, where the public library was located in a building that appeared to be a former “traditional” one-room schoolhouse (although I’m not sure if that’s what it really was), that was open only 4 hours a day, 2 days a week. There, I chanced to find a pamphlet all about the San Francisco cable cars, probably published by some S. F. tourism bureau, seemingly from the 1960’s or so, judging by the pictures. (One pic showed a Signal gas station in the background. And all the 1950’s-1960’s era cars.) The pamphlet ended with a sad prediction that the days of the cable car were clearly numbered, and that it wouldn’t be long before their final demise. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/60 "2015-11-27T20:17:09Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > OTOH, that electricity that runs the cable cars also has to drag the weight of miles of cable plus **fiction** running the entire length-and-back of each line. There’s gotta be some cost to that. 😃 :smack: **FRICTION** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390.md?page=4)