# Who are the riders of San Francisco cable cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390 "2015-08-09T17:47:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/61 "2015-11-27T20:27:46Z")
Another thing about cable cars dropping and re-grabbing the cable (which, BTW, is called “rope” in the cable car biz, per that pamphlet): When the claw is grabbing the rope, it also pulls up on it a bit. When it lets go, the rope drops down a bit, just outside of reach of the claw. To grab the rope again, the car must dip down a bit. There are very specific places along each route where the driver is supposed to do this. At these spots, there is a dip built into the roadway. The operator has to grab the rope just as the car passes through that dip (which, I think, is in a place where the car would be stopping anyway, so the driver doesn’t have to grab it on the fly with split-second precision). There is one such spot clearly visible near the Cable Barn. IIRC, it’s just a block or maybe just a half-block uphill from the barn. After I read about it in that pamphlet, the next time I visited San Francisco I made it a point to go see it myself. There is a sign posted at the spot, with instruction “Take rope”. I’m sure the driver already knows that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/62 "2015-11-27T20:35:13Z")
Trying to find some good pics on-line . . . Just found [this blog](http://prr4ever.blogspot.com/2010/03/10-04-03-photos-san-francisco-2010-part.html) by rail fan “Jersey Mike” with extensive excellent photos of San Francisco cable cars, including pics and some comments about the crossing at California and Powell. ETA: He links to more pics from a previous expedition [here](http://palter.org/~brotzman/10-03-03_SAN_FRAN_010/-Thumbnails.html). ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/63 "2015-11-27T20:54:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And I for one am surprised to hear that they release their grip on the cable when going downhill-- I’d have thought that the ability to counterweight the cable like that would have been the primary reason they went with cable cars, in hilly SF. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by\*\* Dougie-Monty:\*\* > I’m surprised too. I never heard that they did such a thing. On reading further from the link in post #52, it appears they do it both ways: > [@](#): > > (I hope you’re paying attention-there will be a test afterwards) The cable can also be used as a brake going downhill. It will not actually stop the car, but it will hold the speed to a constant 9 ½ MPH. The proper form requires the use of both wheel and track brake, simultaneously, in gradual amounts, until the speed of the car reaches zero. There are two methods of descending steep grades. One is to go “full grip”, and the other is called “walking”. Let’s look at these in detail. > > “Full Grip” is essentially the same as going uphill, only with the brakes fully applied. (And, of course, going downhill.) If a stop is required, the grip is released, and the brakes take hold. The cable is basically dragging the car down against the brakes. This makes for a very secure method of decline. > > “Walking” is a more difficult style of operation. In this, the grip is set to “neutral”, where it is holding the cable lightly, not enough to drop it entirely, yet not fully engaged, and the brakes are adjusted accordingly, to either increase or decrease speed. Instead of the cable being used to propel the car, simple gravity takes over. This technique requires more skill (and work) but it also gives a gripman more control over the car. With full grip, the car is moving at slightly under full cable speed. When walking the car, a much lower speed is possible, making it easier to come to a full stop if necessary. So, even when connected to the cable on a downgrade the brakes are still applied and the cable is pulling the car downhill against the brakes. To stop, the cable is released and the brakes bring the car to a halt. The downside to this method is that the car is still travelling at 9.5 mph which may be a bit too fast for a quick stop. The advantage to “walking” the car downgrade (coasting with the cable released) is that the car can be held to a slower pace, and can stop in a shorter distance. Also, while it wasn’t mentioned in the text, I wonder if riding the cable downgrade would “stretch” the cable and cause the car to “push” some cable slack ahead which might cause alignment problems in the cable possibly causing it to jump a guide on curves or even on the main drive sheave. SS ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/64 "2015-11-27T21:17:37Z")
So, what happens if a cable car lets go of the rope anywhere other than one of the “Take Rope” dips? Does everyone need to get out and push to reach the nearest dip? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/65 "2015-11-27T23:15:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, what happens if a cable car lets go of the rope anywhere other than one of the “Take Rope” dips? Does everyone need to get out and push to reach the nearest dip? No…if there is no declivity in the street, there may be a “gypsy”–a lever in the street, flush with the street surface, that lifts pulleys that lift the cable at that spot. The gripman also has a hooked stick he can stick into the slot, just behind the grip jaws, to lift the cable. ---
**Author:** ![allyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@allyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/allyn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/66 "2015-11-28T00:59:38Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > No…if there is no declivity in the street, there may be a “gypsy”–a lever in the street, flush with the street surface, that lifts pulleys that lift the cable at that spot. The gripman also has a hooked stick he can stick into the slot, just behind the grip jaws, to lift the cable. If a cable car has to drop the cable on a hill, they will back down to the bottom of the hill to re-acquire the cable. You’ll hear the conductor ringing his bell (“dink-dink”) as the car backs down…if there are any cars in the way, they’ll have to back down too. The locals, if they’re feeling helpful, will sometimes assist in directing traffic… ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/67 "2015-11-28T01:52:00Z")
I can’t see the Hyde Street car backing down Russian Hill–on the north side from loss of the cable, all the way down from Francisco to North Point! That’s pretty far! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/68 "2015-11-28T02:47:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, they would. I was just comparing them to buses, not to other forms of trolley. Cable cars might still be a bit more efficient than electric trolleys, since a cable grip is lighter than an electric motor, but then, there are probably a lot of other factors that go into the calculation that I’m neglecting. > > And I for one am surprised to hear that they release their grip on the cable when going downhill-- I’d have thought that the ability to counterweight the cable like that would have been the primary reason they went with cable cars, in hilly SF. That works ok for a gondala/barge system, where everything is going around and no one minds the waits for a stop. Or for the barge system, its only going to do two at a time, one up one down but there’s a queue of barges waiting. The points are that the slopes are constant, the vehicles are all the same loading, and there so the variability of the load is rather well controlled… there’s no large random changes midjourney. Its obviously impractical to have all cable cars come to a stop when one is at its stop… the other cars would be blocking the roads, and if one HAS to reverse, due to a traffic jam, they’d all have to reverse. So thats why they must be able to detach. Now the detaching and attaching would make speed surges… There’d have to be a sophisticated braking system, and it would wanna be ready, so it’d have to be predicatively operated …“braking system on now, two seconds early !”. And if the cable speed controller was to fail, then the cable cars going down hill may well surge forward at great acceleration… before the driver could get to his own brakes… Something they wouldn’t be used to, and it would then cause the situation that some drivers just let the other drivers do the braking… which could sometimes fail if all drivers assume someone else will do it… Rather dangerous to other traffic… Well anyway braking is horribly complicated, so each car is responsible for that. They just don’t have any motive power inbuilt, so they climb by grabbing hold of the rope. The reason its safe enough to have them climb by rope is that there is time for the driver to get to the brakes should the car start to roll backward down the slope. And they all know that if that happens, thats what they have to do, as it only happens in some rare failure. (not merely because there happens to be a few more cars down uphill than downhill… ) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/69 "2015-11-28T04:06:48Z")
And keep in mind: an _empty_ cable car weighs six tons. ---
**Author:** ![allyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@allyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/allyn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/70 "2015-11-28T09:19:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I can’t see the Hyde Street car backing down Russian Hill–on the north side from loss of the cable, all the way down from Francisco to North Point! That’s pretty far! :eek: I’m specifically thinking about Jackson St. When I say they back down the hill, I really mean they back down to the last “Take Rope” spot. On Jackson St. that works out to be the last intersection. Normally, the operator will make sure the street is clear (i.e. no double parked vehicles, etc…) before taking the rope. If someone’s double parked (e.g. an Uber pickup) or trying to park inappropriately you’ll hear the crewing ringing the bell and shouting at them to get out of the way. It’s all part of the show… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/71 "2015-11-28T14:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Isilder** : > > That works ok for a gondala/barge system, where everything is going around and no one minds the waits for a stop. Or for the barge system, its only going to do two at a time, one up one down but there’s a queue of barges waiting. The points are that the slopes are constant, the vehicles are all the same loading, and there so the variability of the load is rather well controlled… there’s no large random changes midjourney. Oh, sure, the balance won’t be exact. That’s why you need the motors, after all. But the balance would be a lot closer with the downhill cars gripping than with them being loose. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390/72 "2015-11-28T15:51:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, sure, the balance won’t be exact. That’s why you need the motors, after all. But the balance would be a lot closer with the downhill cars gripping than with them being loose. Well, the downhill cars are (ideally) ALL gripping the cable. A six-ton car speeding down an 18% grade—well, that’s not a wise idea, to put it mildly. The track- and wheel - brakes would be useless in such a situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-riders-of-san-francisco-cable-cars/727390.md?page=3)