# Who are the rightful monarchs of France, Austria, Germany, and Russia?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 16, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573 "2017-04-16T18:51:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/1 "2017-04-16T18:51:52Z")
The Bourbons, Hapsburgs, Hohenzollerns, and Romanovs (and add any other families you like) undoubtedly have a number of living descendants, many of whom must be patiently waiting for the people of Europe to get over this democracy nonsense and demand the return of benevolent monarchical rule. Is there at least consensus among the living generations as to which of them is first in line as the rightful successor, come the longed-for Restoration?
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/2 "2017-04-16T19:13:42Z")
The Romanovs were murdered on 17 July 1918. Before any of the Tsar’s children produced an heir.
I don’t think there is a direct heir to Russia’s monarchy?
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/3 "2017-04-16T19:17:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> Is there at least consensus among the living generations as to which of them is first in line as the rightful successor, come the longed-for Restoration?
Sometimes, yes:
**Hohenzollerns** - [Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Friedrich,_Prince_of_Prussia)
**Habsburgs** - [Karl von Habsburg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Habsburg)
Sometimes, no:
**Romanovs** - [Nicholas Romanov, Prince of Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Romanov,_Prince_of_Russia)
**Bourbon** - [Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alphonse,_Duke_of_Anjou)
In the Romanov case it is a question of legitimacy of descent. In the Bourbon case leadership of house Bourbon is uncontested far as I know, but claims to the French throne is by rival houses.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/4 "2017-04-16T19:20:28Z")
For the Hapsburg and Hohenzollerns, it’s fairly easy. The man who would be Emperor of Austria is Karl von Hapsburg, a businessman/venture capitalist who is the oldest son of Otto von Hapsburg, who was himself the oldest son of Emperor Charles.
For the Hohenzollerns, it’s George Friedrich, a businessman who is the great great grandson of the Kaiser.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/5 "2017-04-16T19:51:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> The Romanovs were murdered on 17 July 1918. Before any of the Tsar’s children produced an heir.
>
> I don’t think there is a direct heir to Russia’s monarchy?
The rightful heir to the throne does not need to be a direct descendant of the last monarch. Not sure why you would think that.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/6 "2017-04-16T19:57:15Z")
Uh, because Prince Charles is next in line behind the Queen. William comes after Charles and then someday Prince George is destined to be king.
Charlotte and Harry are the first two spare heirs if needed.
Succession to the throne is very clearly defined.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/7 "2017-04-16T20:02:26Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Uh, because Charles is next in line behind the Queen. William comes after Charles and then someday George.
>
> Succession to the throne is very clearly defined.
But this doesn’t mean that they need to be a direct descendant of the last monarch to be the rightful heir. If, for example, Bolsheviks murdered the first 44 members in line to the British throne it would rightfully go to [this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Michael_of_Kent) who is the Queen’s cousin and not her direct descendant.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/8 "2017-04-16T20:07:40Z")
I wasn’t aware of that.
Ignorance fought.
Its always good to learn something new.
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### Author:  [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/9 "2017-04-16T20:08:57Z")
Yes, but if the monarch dies without children then sucessio9n can pass to a brother, cousin, nephew, second cousin, great nephew, etc.
Hence why he said, the rightful heir to the throne does not need to be a direct descendant of the last monarch.
Edit - ninja’d
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/10 "2017-04-16T20:21:21Z")
Note that the word “rightful” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. What makes a monarch the rightful monarch? If you’re the heir of the previous monarch? Sure, but plenty of kings and queens have ruled kingdoms and not been the heir of the previous monarch. And what makes you the heir, anyway? The law of the society you live in. So what exactly is the difference between countries with laws specifying the heir of the current monarch, but which would be changed (do sons always come before daughters? Do daughters come before cousins? Do illegitimate children count?) and a law passed by the government that just says that such and such a person is the new monarch?
Meaning, if France decided to become a monarchy again, who says that the head of the house of Bourbon would rightfully be that monarch? Why not an heir of Napoleon? Or me? I’m between jobs right now and could use the work.
A monarch is only the “rightful monarch” if people clap hard enough to make them the rightful monarch. If the people don’t believe in fairies anymore, then they stop being the rightful monarch.
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### Author:  [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/11 "2017-04-16T20:25:32Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#):
>
> Yes, but if the monarch dies without children then sucessio9n can pass to a brother, cousin, nephew, second cousin, great nephew, etc.
>
> Hence why he said, the rightful heir to the throne does not need to be a direct descendant of the last monarch.
And in the Russian case, it gets complicated because of a lot of questions over:[ol]
[li]Whether Nicholas, when he abdicated in March 1917, also had the right to abdicate on behalf of his son[/li][li]Whether or not the refusal of Grand Duke Michael, in whose favor Nicholas abdicated, to accept the throne was meaningful[/li][li]The fact that Michael had no legitimate heirs from an equal marriage[/li][li]The Pauline rules that severely limit the conditions under which women can inherit or pass succession on to their children[/li][li]Whether a marriage between a Romanov dynast and a Georgian princess in 1948 is considered an equal marriage for dynastic purposes[/li][/ol]
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### Author:  [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/12 "2017-04-16T20:40:56Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> Note that the word “rightful” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. What makes a monarch the rightful monarch? If you’re the heir of the previous monarch? Sure, but plenty of kings and queens have ruled kingdoms and not been the heir of the previous monarch. And what makes you the heir, anyway?
The appropriate term is [pretender.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretender) Although I don’t think Chrissie Hynde’s in line to inherit anything.
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### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/13 "2017-04-16T20:50:14Z")
Realistically, none of those countries is dying to bring back a monarch and none of the “rightful” heirs feels any great calling.
IF the monarchy were restored anywhere… I’d vote Russia. Putin is all about “Autocracy, Orthodoxy and Nationality.” I could see him deciding that a new tsar was just the thing to inspire a new burst of patriotism.
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### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/14 "2017-04-16T20:51:25Z")
BTW, as a Borbon/Bourbon, would Spain’s king Juan Carlos have any claim to be king of France?
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### Author:  [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/15 "2017-04-16T21:01:50Z")
Also remember that the Bonapartes have their claim to the French throne. The current pretender in that line is [Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoléon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Christophe,_Prince_Napol%C3%A9on), who is 20 years old.
Jean-Christophe’s father, Prince Charles, is still alive, however, and some Bonapartists refuse to accept that Charles’s father, Prince Louis Bonaparte, passed over Charles to name Jean-Christophe as the rightful heir (he didn’t like Charles’s republican sympathies). Charles has said he will never fight his son for the rights.
Ironically, Jean-Christophe is also descended from Louis Phillippe, the last Bourbon monarch, although through a female line, which precludes him from claiming the rights to that line.
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### Author:  [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/16 "2017-04-16T21:05:24Z")
My favorite little monarchist tidbit is that Simeon II, the last Tsar of Bulgaria, who lost his throne in 1946, became the Prime Minister of a fully democratic Bulgaria in 2001, as Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (or Sakskoburggotski, in Bulgarian).
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/17 "2017-04-16T21:10:37Z")
Is it just me or does [“Napoléon VII”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Christophe,_Prince_Napol%C3%A9on) kind of look like Justin Trudeau.
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#):
>
> But this doesn’t mean that they need to be a direct descendant of the last monarch to be the rightful heir. If, for example, Bolsheviks murdered the first 44 members in line to the British throne it would rightfully go to [this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Michael_of_Kent) who is the Queen’s cousin and not her direct descendant.
Or Her Majesty’s own father; George VI. He inherited the throne from his brother, Edward VIII, who abdicated without issue.
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### Author:  [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/18 "2017-04-16T21:12:20Z")
France has a fourth one, Henri: [Henri, Count of Paris (1933–2019) - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri,_Count_of_Paris_(born_1933))
It depends on if you consider Louis-Philippe legitimate. I think this generally means that Henri’s claim is more widely accepted than Louis Alphonse’s, n’est-ce pas?
UK still has a Jacobite claimant, now a German guy who doesn’t press his claim very much.
> **[Heads of former ruling families](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_pretenders)**
>
> These individuals may or may not claim titles associated with an abolished monarchy. Individuals who stake claims to monarchical titles but who are not part of former dynasties are not included. Note that a country may have multiple houses with a claim to the defunct position.
>
> Nepal's numerous small monarchies were collectively abolished by the federal government on 7 October 2008. At the time, the thrones of both Salyan and Jajarkot had been vacant since the deaths of rajas Gopendra Bahadur a...
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### Author:  [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/19 "2017-04-16T21:23:30Z")
[What about this pretender?](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTg1NjI3MjI3N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDY5NjAzMQ@@._V1_UY268_CR5,0,182,268_AL_.jpg)
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### Author:  [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/20 "2017-04-16T21:24:36Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#):
>
> The appropriate term is [pretender.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretender) Although I don’t think Chrissie Hynde’s in line to inherit anything.
She could use her, her, her, imagination.
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