# Who are the rightful monarchs of France, Austria, Germany, and Russia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573 "2017-04-16T18:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/41 "2017-04-19T04:13:30Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > Suppose the Orthodox jews and Hasidem in Israel had some kind of liturgical coup or Revolution, restoring rule by a Hebrew King…has anybody been monitoring a Davidic Lineage? Open to correction by someone more knowledgeable, but I don’t know that the kingships of Israel and Judah descended by strict primogeniture. A king had to be a descendant of David, but I don’t think there were any rules that said he had to be the senior male-line descendant, or anything like that. You’d still be faced with the same problem, of course - today, how can you know whether someone is a descendant of David or not? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/42 "2017-04-19T04:51:08Z")
The Kings of Georgia claim descent from David. 5-year-old [Giorgi Bagrationi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgi_Bagrationi_(born_2011)), and [Irakli Bagrationi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irakli_Bagrationi_(born_1981)) are the current claimants from various branches of the family. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/43 "2017-04-19T07:55:35Z")
Ever since, according to myth, the prophet Samuel poured oil on the young David’s head and declared him king, the proper Jewish term for the heir to the house of David has been “the Anointed One”, or, in Hebrew, “Messiah”. There have been a number of claimants to the title over the years. You’ve probably heard of a few. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/44 "2017-04-19T08:12:39Z")
The last Jewish king for some time, Herod Agrippa II, died without issue apparently. Of his sisters, Berenice probably had children. Mariamne had children. Drusilla died along with her son via Vesuvius eruption. Not sure if there is any evidence of long term lines beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/45 "2017-04-19T08:54:05Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Someone asked about Kings of Spain’s claim to the French Throne. This reminded me of [Carlism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlism) (no relation to former King Carlos). Reading the Wikipedia article on it is yet another example of the extent people will waste time (centuries!) arguing over claims to a throne. Not really. God, Law, Country, King: the King comes last. The “succession issue” was merely the excuse for what was actually a huge argument between the people who wanted to copy everything the foreigners did (because foreign is better, don’t cha know) and those who wanted to go back to the way things used to be (because everything was better in the good old times, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/46 "2017-04-19T11:53:32Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The last Jewish king for some time, Herod Agrippa II, died without issue apparently. Of his sisters, Berenice probably had children. Mariamne had children. Drusilla died along with her son via Vesuvius eruption. Not sure if there is any evidence of long term lines beyond that. I doubt it would make much of a difference - the Judeans didn’t even consider the Herodians legitimate at the time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/47 "2017-04-19T12:15:23Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > Suppose the Orthodox jews and Hasidem in Israel had some kind of liturgical coup or Revolution, restoring rule by a Hebrew King…has anybody been monitoring a Davidic Lineage? We don’t know that David ever existed, so that would be a real trick if someone did it! If someone could establish a verifiable line of descent, that would be one of the greatest archeological coups of the modern era. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/48 "2017-04-19T15:18:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I doubt it would make much of a difference - the Judeans didn’t even consider the Herodians legitimate at the time. I know, I figure SOMEONE does :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/49 "2017-04-20T17:59:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > You’d still be faced with the same problem, of course - today, how can you know whether someone is a descendant of David or not? I suppose they could try to track back to the Hasmonean dynasty if that’s what it took. Still a tall order. ---
**Author:** ![toast\_pakora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@toast\_pakora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toast_pakora)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/50 "2017-04-21T01:49:54Z")
\*\*Romanov **Following** some random links in Wikipedia (man, there are a \*lot \*of obscure minor titles and they all get together at weddings) I came across this: \*\* **Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen** … He is a [claimant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretender) to the [defunct throne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolished_monarchy) of the [Russian Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire), held until 1917 by the Imperial [House of Romanov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Romanov), as a grandson of [Grand Duchess Maria Kirillovna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchess_Maria_Kirillovna_of_Russia) (1907-1951), eldest child of [Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Vladimirovich,_Grand_Duke_of_Russia), who claimed the Russian crown from exile in 1924. He is a great-great-grandson of Emperor [Alexander II of Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia) and grand nephew of [Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_Vladimir_Kirillovich_of_Russia). In 2013, the [Monarchist Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchist_Party) of Russia declared him the primary heir to the [Russian throne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_former_Russian_throne) upon his conversion from [Lutheranism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism) to [Eastern Orthodox Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christianity), and in 2014 announced the formation of the _[Imperial Throne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Throne_%28Sovereign_Nation%29)_, wherein Karl Emich had agreed to assume imperial dignity as _Emperor Nicholas III_. This is loony tunes.There’s a plot to establish the “Romanov Empire” in either Montenegro or some islands acquired from Kiribati ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/51 "2017-04-21T15:59:39Z")
> [@toast\_pakora](#): > > \*\*Romanov > **Following** some random links in Wikipedia (man, there are a \*lot \*of obscure minor titles and they all get together at weddings) I came across this: > > \*\* > **Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen** … He is a [claimant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretender) to the [defunct throne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolished_monarchy) of the [Russian Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire), held until 1917 by the Imperial [House of Romanov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Romanov), as a grandson of [Grand Duchess Maria Kirillovna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchess_Maria_Kirillovna_of_Russia) (1907-1951), eldest child of [Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Vladimirovich,_Grand_Duke_of_Russia), who claimed the Russian crown from exile in 1924. He is a great-great-grandson of Emperor [Alexander II of Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia) and grand nephew of [Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_Vladimir_Kirillovich_of_Russia). In 2013, the [Monarchist Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchist_Party) of Russia declared him the primary heir to the [Russian throne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_former_Russian_throne) upon his conversion from [Lutheranism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism) to [Eastern Orthodox Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christianity), and in 2014 announced the formation of the _[Imperial Throne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Throne_%28Sovereign_Nation%29)_, wherein Karl Emich had agreed to assume imperial dignity as _Emperor Nicholas III_. > This is loony tunes.There’s a plot to establish the “Romanov Empire” in either Montenegro or some islands acquired from Kiribati Again, I would NOT rule out the possibility of Putin playing the nationalist card and elevating some obscure Romanov to the title of tsar. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/52 "2017-04-21T17:02:36Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The last Jewish king for some time, Herod Agrippa II, died without issue apparently. Of his sisters, Berenice probably had children. Mariamne had children. Drusilla died along with her son via Vesuvius eruption. Not sure if there is any evidence of long term lines beyond that. As **Alessan** points out, Herod was not of the House of David, so irrelevant to any hunt for a Jewish King. In fact, according to Internet genealogies (:rolleyes:) Herod wasn’t even of the House of Jacob, but was an agnate of Jacob’s older brother, Esau of the Stolen Birthright. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > We don’t know that David ever existed, so that would be a real trick if someone did it! If someone could establish a verifiable line of descent, that would be one of the greatest archeological coups of the modern era. It is controversial, but I think a majority accepts that the Tel Dan Stele describes an Aramean victory (ca 840 BC) over “Ahaziah, son of Joram of the House of David.” If David’s existence is mythical it is a very old myth. And, although scholars had thought Jerusalem was a small village in the time of David and Solomon, evidence of a very large and ancient building (Solomon’s palace?) has recently been unearthed. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/53 "2017-04-21T17:20:08Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Again, I would NOT rule out the possibility of Putin playing the nationalist card and elevating some obscure Romanov to the title of tsar. Only if he could make pretty damn sure he’s still Prime Minister for life… He wouldn’t want a putative Tsar to be getting above himself. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/54 "2017-04-21T18:40:49Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Only if he could make pretty damn sure he’s still Prime Minister for life… He wouldn’t want a putative Tsar to be getting above himself. Finding a dim Romanov shouldn’t be too hard! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/55 "2017-04-21T20:36:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > As **Alessan** points out, Herod was not of the House of David, so irrelevant to any hunt for a Jewish King. In fact, according to Internet genealogies (:rolleyes:) Herod wasn’t even of the House of Jacob, but was an agnate of Jacob’s older brother, Esau of the Stolen Birthright. By all historical accounts, Herod, while religiously Jewish, was ethnically an [Edomite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom). According to Jewish folklore, the Edomites are descended from Jacob’s brother Esau (incidentally, the root of their name, E/A.D.M, is Hebrew for “red”; Esau was famously a redhead). His illegitimacy comes from his heritage, but mostly due to the fact that he was seen as an adventurer installed by the Romans and usurping the Hasmonean dynasty (whose legitimacy, in turn, was also considered suspect by many, as they too could claim no descent from David). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/56 "2017-04-21T21:08:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It is controversial, but I think a majority accepts that the Tel Dan Stele describes an Aramean victory (ca 840 BC) over “Ahaziah, son of Joram of the House of David.” If David’s existence is mythical it is a very old myth. And, although scholars had thought Jerusalem was a small village in the time of David and Solomon, evidence of a very large and ancient building (Solomon’s palace?) has recently been unearthed. I’m aware of recent tantalizing evidence that David might very well have existed, but it still not firmly established. Very interesting, and tantalizing, but not quite there yet. At any rate, I don’t think it would be possible for someone to convincingly trace their lineage back to “King David”, which was the original suggestion. And if they were able to do so, that would necessitate the revelation of some truly remarkable, new archeological evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573/57 "2017-04-22T18:26:15Z")
If any Romanov has a realistic chance of actually taking the throne it would be [Grand Duchess Maria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Vladimirovna,_Grand_Duchess_of_Russia) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-rightful-monarchs-of-france-austria-germany-and-russia/784573.md?page=2)