# Who are the strongest contenders for the title of "greatest American rock band ever"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547 "2018-05-04T02:32:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/221 "2018-05-08T13:54:48Z")
Missed the edit window… Cassidy lyrics by John Perry Barlow. _Quick beats in an icy heart/ Catch-colt draws a coffin cart…_ (how many songs do you need an eighteenth century dictionary for?) Bob Weir sang Cassidy to Barlow at his funeral: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yTUYH8LP2Jc/maxresdefault.jpg "Bob Weir Sings Cassidy To John Perry Barlow On His Deathbed") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTUYH8LP2Jc) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/222 "2018-05-08T14:05:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Tell that to [John Lydon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Pistols#Building_a_following): > Quote: > Lydon has repeatedly rejected any suggestion that it influenced the Sex Pistols: "[The Ramones] were all long-haired and of no interest to me. I didn’t like their image, what they stood for, or anything about them. They were hilarious but you can only go so far with ‘duh-dur-dur-duh’. I’ve heard it. Next. Move on. > > “No New York Dolls, no Sex Pistols”, I could understand. But the Ramones? Naaah. You \*do \*realize that John Lydon is a _provocateur_ and NOT the person you would rely on for “what really happened”, right? He will say anything to get a rise, and will say anything to frame himself and his situation to his purposes. Regardless of what Johnny says, the Ramones playing in London was a huge deal to the UK punk scene. I have read countless books and articles on this, and even Chrissie Hynde’s memoir discusses it while she was hanging out with them, potentially marrying Sid Vicious for some stupid reason, etc. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/223 "2018-05-08T14:30:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Like some other perennial Doper favourites (Rush, for one), any judgement on “continuing influence” is going to have to take into account the fact that the Dead are not all that well known in some other parts of the world. I mean, I know who they are, but I’ve only, _ever_ heard them incidentally. I could not pick out a song of theirs, and I’ve never seen a video of them. They did not get much airplay in South Africa, not even on oldies and blues shows. I could probably sit down and name 50 more influential rock acts here without really thinking. Even in the U.S., they weren’t a band whose songs really broke through into the general consciousness. Sure, everyone knows _of_ the Dead, and many people know about their reputation as a jam band (and the loyalty of Deadheads, the Deadhead logo, the dancing bears logo, etc.), but they only had one top 40 hit, and that came 20 years into their career (Touch of Gray). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/224 "2018-05-08T14:57:09Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > What I’ve been saying all along. Apparently I know two Grateful Dead songs and one Ramones’ song. > > Not really internationally influencial! Just because you only know one Ramones and two Dead songs does not necessarily mean anything about their international influence. Like I said, I played in a touring band in Europe (we played through six or seven countries) and met lots of different indie/punk musicians in my travels there. Most of the bands I hung out with definitely knew who the Ramones were and many also were influenced by them. Of course, Tommy Ramone has Hungarian roots, so that may influence the popularity in the local music scene, but even beyond, the Ramones are a cornerstone of rock history. Now, I do agree with you that my vote would go to the Beach Boys, but that’s because I like them better and listen to them more often, and if we consider mainstream popularity, they win there (although I’d say the Ramones have greater and more enduring musical influence overall than the Beach Boys.) But your personal experience with the Ramones doesn’t necessarily really speak to their wider influence on music. I’m sure you probably can’t name more than one or two (if any) Velvet Underground songs. But few would argue against their great influence on the music scene. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/225 "2018-05-08T15:06:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “No New York Dolls, no Sex Pistols”, I could understand. But the Ramones? Naaah. If you want to go down the progenitors of punk discussion, and we don’t want to give it to the Ramones, I’d say The Stooges are in the discussion there (and another band that I personally enjoy more than the Ramones.) I can actually see them as a valid entry for “Greatest American Rock Band Ever,” although they are somewhat obscure in the mainstream (though people will recognize some of Iggy Pop’s poppier work.) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/226 "2018-05-08T15:47:51Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Even in the U.S., they weren’t a band whose songs really broke through into the general consciousness. Sure, everyone knows _of_ the Dead, and many people know about their reputation as a jam band (and the loyalty of Deadheads, the Deadhead logo, the dancing bears logo, etc.), but they only had one top 40 hit, and that came 20 years into their career (Touch of Gray). > [@](#): > > They’re not the best at what they do, they’re the only ones that do what they do. I wish the Dead had hired CSN&Y to do their vocals is all … ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/227 "2018-05-08T16:03:39Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You \*do \*realize that John Lydon is a _provocateur_ and NOT the person you would rely on for “what really happened”, right? He will say anything to get a rise, and will say anything to frame himself and his situation to his purposes. Sure, but in this case, it fits with the timing - the Pistols already existed and were gigging and building up a following \*before \*the Ramones debut was even released. > [@](#): > > Regardless of what Johnny says, the Ramones playing in London was a huge deal to the UK punk scene. I don’t doubt this, it’s \*specifically \*the “No Ramones, No Pistols” I don’t buy at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/228 "2018-05-08T16:08:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > If you want to go down the progenitors of punk discussion, and we don’t want to give it to the Ramones, I’d say The Stooges are in the discussion there I love the Stooges, but I mentioned the New York Dolls specifically because of the close Malcolm McLaren connection between the two. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/229 "2018-05-08T16:29:52Z")
Blondie. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/230 "2018-05-08T17:38:38Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I am quite certain that there are currently more fans of either the Ramones… than the Beach Boys. I’m not minimizing the Beach Boys at all, but… the Ramones are a cultural touchstone for everyone in the punk rock scene, which includes a huge number of people. Compared to those two, it’s the Beach Boys who are the “footnote.” (removed GD references) I have no idea why you’d be certain that there are more current fans of the Ramones than the Beach Boys, unless you’re defining fans in a weird way. The Ramone’s first album did go gold, but it took it four decades to do so, and so did their 1988 compilation album. Beach Boys meanwhile have bunches of gold and platinum albums, and their 2003 compilation album managed to go triple platinum. I am sure that in 8 years there will be a “50th anniversary of the Ramones” album released, but I also really don’t think it’s going to hit platinum sales numbers. As long as we are counting ‘fan’ to include ‘someone who likes them enough to buy an album’, I jut don’t see anything to support the idea that the Ramones have more fans than the Beach Boys, unless you think that a lot of their fans died off between 2003 and 2018 (which is not impossible as they are an old band). ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/231 "2018-05-08T18:34:11Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I have no idea why you’d be certain that there are more current fans of the Ramones than the Beach Boys, unless you’re defining fans in a weird way. The Ramone’s first album did go gold, but it took it four decades to do so, and so did their 1988 compilation album. Beach Boys meanwhile have bunches of gold and platinum albums, and their 2003 compilation album managed to go triple platinum. I am sure that in 8 years there will be a “50th anniversary of the Ramones” album released, but I also really don’t think it’s going to hit platinum sales numbers. > > As long as we are counting ‘fan’ to include ‘someone who likes them enough to buy an album’, I jut don’t see anything to support the idea that the Ramones have more fans than the Beach Boys, unless you think that a lot of their fans died off between 2003 and 2018 (which is not impossible as they are an old band). To be clear: it’s not about the albums The Ramones sold, it is the fact that they became THE blueprint for the Punk sound. Not Talking Heads. Not Blondie. Not Television. The Ramones - which led to Green Day and the huge mall punk genre that dominated through the 1990’s - Blink 182, Sum 41, Good Charlotte. The argument for The Ramones is not about fans, it is about influence. At this point, there’s a bit of Ramones in a lot of guitar music, the same way there is a ton of Chuck Berry in everyone’s guitar music. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/232 "2018-05-08T23:08:26Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > The argument for The Ramones is not about fans, it is about influence. At this point, there’s a bit of Ramones in a lot of guitar music, the same way there is a ton of Chuck Berry in everyone’s guitar music. Please read the post you’re responding to before you respond to it, as I directly quoted the claim I was arguing with. The claim I disagreed with was explicitly a claim that the Ramones had more fans than the Beach Boys, so the particular argument you were replying to is explicitly about fans and only about fans, not influence. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/233 "2018-05-08T23:31:40Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Please read the post you’re responding to before you respond to it, as I directly quoted the claim I was arguing with. The claim I disagreed with was explicitly a claim that the Ramones had more fans than the Beach Boys, so the particular argument you were replying to is explicitly about fans and only about fans, not influence. This is actually an interesting question to me. I would guess there’s more Beach Boys fans than Ramones fans overall. But I would guess with Gen X and younger, you’d probably find the opposite. As a first approximation, I decided to see on Facebook which band was more followed. And, to be honest, I was a little surprised. Beach Boys has 1.9 million likes. The Ramones has 5.7 million. That really is not what I would have guessed. ETA: Anyhow, just to round it out: Aerosmith has 16M likes. Grateful Dead has 1.9M likes (I’m surprised it’s this low) Van Halen has 5.7M likes. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers has 3.3M likes. Bruce Springsteen has 5.4M likes. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/234 "2018-05-08T23:40:36Z")
OK, I guess I should add some of the other bands: Eagles: 6.5M likes Journey: 5.8M likes Kansas: 1.4M likes Cheap Trick: 0.9M likes ☹ So, the Ramones are on par in popularity on Facebook with Van Halen and Journey, more popular than the Beach Boys, the Dead, Tom Petty, Bruce, Kansas, and Cheap Trick, and less popular than Aerosmith and the Eagles. I do have to say, that puts them in pretty good company. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/235 "2018-05-08T23:41:02Z")
But as with anything, I really don’t think "Greatest American Rock Band, _EV-er…"_ should be a popularity contest. I mean, at any given time, you can have _trendy pop_ outselling _ **gutsy rock** _. Wish I had a stat handy, like “Taylor Swift has sold more concert tickets than Lou Reed, the Stooges and the Ramones lumped together.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/236 "2018-05-08T23:45:07Z")
Oh, crap, I missed Guns N Roses. 30M likes. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/237 "2018-05-08T23:46:44Z")
> [@digs](#): > > But as with anything, I really don’t think "Greatest American Rock Band, _EV-er…"_ should be a popularity contest. I mean, at any given time, you can have _trendy pop_ outselling _ **gutsy rock** _. > > Wish I had a stat handy, like “Taylor Swift has sold more concert tickets than Lou Reed, the Stooges and the Ramones lumped together.” Oh, yes, I absolutely, totally agree. But I’m just trying to throw out numbers for various metrics. People who say the Ramones are some obscure band that nobody has heard of or knows (which seems to be a thread in this thread–apologies if I’m misinterpreting), are not accurate in their assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/238 "2018-05-09T00:01:34Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And, to be honest, I was a little surprised. Beach Boys has 1.9 million likes. The Ramones has 5.7 million. That really is not what I would have guessed. And, not to say “I told ya so, I told ya so”…OK, _kinda_ to say that, I guess…:p…there’s a reason why I specifically said the Ramones “were a cultural touchstone.” I chose those words for a reason: they sound cool. (OK OK, seriously now…) No, I said it because I think it’s the truth. The Ramones symbolize an ethos that binds people together, even if it’s only superficial fandom. Just like the Dead, you will see the Ramones logo all over the place. I’ve seen it on cars, on shirts, on hats, on peoples’ guitar cases…yeah, and as with the Dead, some of it is just commercialism. People realized that the image was marketable, and they marketed accordingly. But that isn’t true of the Beach Boys. I cannot remember ever seeing _any_ kind of Beach Boys memorabilia, _anywhere._ OBVIOUSLY it’s not the amount of memorabilia or logos that makes a band good. That’s not the topic of this side-discussion - the topic is fandom and the respective size of it for various bands. And I think by any metric of measuring that, you will find more Ramones fans than Beach Boys fans. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/239 "2018-05-09T00:30:46Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > And, not to say “I told ya so, I told ya so”…OK, _kinda_ to say that, I guess…:p…there’s a reason why I specifically said the Ramones “were a cultural touchstone.” I chose those words for a reason: they sound cool… I cannot remember ever seeing _any_ kind of Beach Boys memorabilia, _anywhere._… you will find more Ramones fans than Beach Boys fans. Part of that is the Coolness Factor. My (college) students rock Ramones t-shirts (black only, please), but Beach Boys and even Beatles shirt don’t have that same dangerous “I’m a rebel, Dotty!” vibe. I listen to more Neil Finn than Bob Marley. Guess whose shirt I’ll wear to school? (Well, Bob’s playing soccer on it, and looks so happy… oh, I mean, _I’m a ganja-puffin’ radical love and peace guy who’s stickin’ to The Man, and whose parents never understood him…_) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/240 "2018-05-09T00:34:55Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Part of that is the Coolness Factor. My (college) students rock Ramones t-shirts (black only, please), but Beach Boys and even Beatles shirt don’t have that same dangerous “I’m a rebel, Dotty!” vibe. To be honest, and I’m sure I’m really out-of-touch, but I would actually think the Beach Boys would be more “cool” as, hell, there’s nothing unusual about loving the Ramones as a fashion accessory (I don’t think they’re only that, but there is an element of that to it), but wearing a Beach Boys shirt would actually clue you in as somebody in the know of bands that may seem a bit “square” but really are cool. Then again, like I said, I’m 42 so probably way out of touch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547.md?page=13)