# Who are the strongest contenders for the title of "greatest American rock band ever"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [May 4, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547 "2018-05-04T02:32:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 16
### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/301 "2018-05-24T00:25:44Z")
Dude: the fact that The Ramones ARE now Dad Rock is the whole fucking point. They’re that influential.
But thanks for your analysis of me. You’re a great read of people.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/302 "2018-05-24T10:00:10Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#):
>
> Ah well…
> I’ve seen them twice, in the 70s.
>
> Don’t care to address my points as usual.
>
> They were a stripped down brutalist rock, a high concept thing that was great. Because of this there is more to write about and philosophize in them than to listen to or grow with. Same with Andy Warhol and a lot of people. It’s not a sin or wrong. It 's the metier.
>
> There are people who like to talk and write about music more than play it. Does this sound familiar to you? Anyway thanks for making my point about how people love to write about the ramones to express themselves. They were influential, but the mythifying and mission creep gets overbearing at times.
>
> At least I don’t see them as dad rock.
By the way, as to your argument - as always you offer a logical fallacy. How can one argue for the importance of something if your counter to any cites are “See, people like to write about them.”
\*\*Argument From Ignorance or Non-Testable Hypothesis \*\*
This is the fallacy that that which has not been proven false must or is likely to be true; however, the fallacy usually applies to concepts that haven’t yet been adequately tested or are beyond the realm of proof. Our legal system protects us from this fallacy under the presumption of innocence guideline – “innocent until proven guilty”. Religious beliefs are founded on this “fallacy”, but remember that a religious belief is, by definition, based on faith, rather than empirical proof or mathematical logic; that’s what the phrase “leap of faith” refers to.
And you don’t know how much music I play. But thanks for attempting to say I’m all talk. Because that helps the conversation.
By the way, the Dad Rock point is explained in the Pit. But you know that.
I’m done discussing this here.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/303 "2018-05-24T11:30:58Z")
Googling list of articles isn’t going to prove anything - I mean,[look what comes up](https://www.stereogum.com/1793955/how-brian-wilson-helped-spawn-punk/franchises/sounding-board/)when I google how influential the Beach Boys were. That search also returns 2 orders of magnitude more results than the Ramones equivalent, BTW.
But you don’t see me arguing “No Beach Boys, No Ramones”. Because that would be a stupid statement.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/304 "2018-05-24T11:42:10Z")
I don’t support The Beach Boys being at the top tier of this OP question? Read my posts; of course The Beach Boys are amazing.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/305 "2018-05-24T11:46:38Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> I don’t support The Beach Boys being at the top tier of this OP question? Read my posts; of course The Beach Boys are amazing.
I don’t think you understand what I was saying - I’m not advocating for the Beach Boys here (I already did that earlier), I’m saying your argument for\* the Ramones\* being there is unconvincing to me.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/306 "2018-05-24T11:54:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I don’t think you understand what I was saying - I’m not advocating for the Beach Boys here (I already did that earlier), I’m saying your argument for\* the Ramones\* being there is unconvincing to me.
Okay, cool. You and I have been able to talk - help me out: what would you need to hear? I hope you hear that I am asking you sincerely, snark-free.
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### Author:  [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/307 "2018-05-24T12:38:25Z")
I wonder if taste is subjective.
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### Author:  [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/308 "2018-05-24T12:43:52Z")
As Chuck Klosterman opined back in the day, the irony of the Ramones is that they had a burn-it-down back-to-basics make-rock-fun-again approach to music and they have subsequently been most enshrined and celebrated by the elitist sophisticated music know-it-alls.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/309 "2018-05-24T12:53:09Z")
> [@tnetennba](#):
>
> As Chuck Klosterman opined back in the day, the irony of the Ramones is that they had a burn-it-down back-to-basics make-rock-fun-again approach to music and they have subsequently been most enshrined and celebrated by the elitist sophisticated music know-it-alls.
I have no argument with that. First and foremost they are simple fun rock - hence my reference to dancing in the kitchen.
But ya gotta admit: if they have this irony, doesn’t it mean that the shadow they cast is considered important enough to be worthy of such discussion?
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### Author:  [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/310 "2018-05-24T13:09:30Z")
Yeah, he wrote about it a lot. Mostly from a meta position of wondering how some bands that are influential become critical darlings (like The Ramones) while even more influential bands are derided and dismissed for decades before being reluctantly and marginally accepted by the critics (his example is Sabbath, I would have gone with Zep).
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/311 "2018-05-24T13:27:27Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> Okay, cool. You and I have been able to talk - help me out: what would you need to hear? I hope you hear that I am asking you sincerely, snark-free.
Look, the issue here isn’t whether the Ramones are influential - I have acknowledged that - the issue is whether they are the greatest (or, OK, let’s say _in the top 5_ greatest) American bands and basically it would come down to more people\* whose opinion I care about \*saying they’re the greatest ever, than any other 5 bands I can easily dig up.
Just to let you know where I’m coming from - bands I would personally rate ahead of the Ramones _just in terms of influence_, besides the aforementioned Beach Boys, would include, but not be limited to:
The Byrds
The Velvet Underground
Simon and Garfunkel
Stooges
New York Dolls
RHCP
Pixies
R.E.M.
Husker Du
Metallica
Pearl Jam
Sonic Youth
Big Star
and hell, even Kiss, much as I hate them.
Note: I’m _not_ saying that these acts are without their own influence (including, doubtless, the Ramones for many), or that they’re technically better or sold more records or sell more t-shirts. I’m saying (and this is as an old-school NME/Melody Maker reader) those are the bands that most frequently came up as influences for a lot of different music I like.
PS some of the above have non-US members but I consider them all US bands.
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### Author:  [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/312 "2018-05-24T13:32:58Z")
No love for the E Street Band?
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/313 "2018-05-24T13:44:07Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#):
>
> No love for the E Street Band?
Post #7 as a reference to previous polls. Post #18 independent mention in this thread.
That is, of course, the correct answer.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/314 "2018-05-24T16:56:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Look, the issue here isn’t whether the Ramones are influential - I have acknowledged that - the issue is whether they are the greatest (or, OK, let’s say _in the top 5_ greatest) American bands and basically it would come down to more people\* whose opinion I care about \*saying they’re the greatest ever, than any other 5 bands I can easily dig up.
>
> Just to let you know where I’m coming from - bands I would personally rate ahead of the Ramones _just in terms of influence_, besides the aforementioned Beach Boys, would include, but not be limited to:
>
> The Byrds
> The Velvet Underground
> Simon and Garfunkel
> Stooges
> New York Dolls
> RHCP
> Pixies
> R.E.M.
> Husker Du
> Metallica
> Pearl Jam
> Sonic Youth
> Big Star
> and hell, even Kiss, much as I hate them.
>
> Note: I’m _not_ saying that these acts are without their own influence (including, doubtless, the Ramones for many), or that they’re technically better or sold more records or sell more t-shirts. I’m saying (and this is as an old-school NME/Melody Maker reader) those are the bands that most frequently came up as influences for a lot of different music I like.
>
> PS some of the above have non-US members but I consider them all US bands.
Sorry - I have that pesky “job” thing that keeps me from important stuff like the SDMB!! 😉
Here’s the thing: your list is cool and what should matter in this type of discussion. As has been stated in this thread, this US question doesn’t have the “official” answer that the UK form of this question has. The point is to groove on different nominees.
I remain of the purely subjective opinion that I would put The Ramones at least on that list, and, to me, higher than most of those listed bands. But that could be a fun interesting conversation: I would not be trying to slag The Pixies or the NY Dolls (Johnny Thunders was too much of a badass player!), but we could argue whose pebble in the pond has caused the biggest ripples. That’s the point of this thread.
Cool?
And as for Springsteen and the E Street Band: if the question is “greatest” sure they belong in the discussion. When i think of them as a influence, I am not sure I see it as much. I mean, bands like The Gaslight Anthem, The Hold Steady and others have a strong Springsteen feel, but its not like they spawned whole new genres, like the Dolls, Stooges, Pixies, SYouth, Ramones, etc. all had a hand at the genesis of Punk and Indie/Alternative.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/315 "2018-05-24T17:28:30Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> I remain of the purely subjective opinion that I would put The Ramones at least on that list, and, to me, higher than most of those listed bands. But that could be a fun interesting conversation: I would not be trying to slag The Pixies or the NY Dolls (Johnny Thunders was too much of a badass player!), but we could argue whose pebble in the pond has caused the biggest ripples. That’s the point of this thread.
>
> Cool?
Cool - just want to say that I haven’t slagged the Ramones (or, at least, I don’t think I have), I’ve only slagged the notion that they are \*universally \*well-known, or that they were \*essential \*for the existence or fame of the Sex Pistols specifically.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/316 "2018-05-24T17:45:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Cool - just want to say that I haven’t slagged the Ramones (or, at least, I don’t think I have), I’ve only slagged the notion that they are \*universally \*well-known, or that they were \*essential \*for the existence or fame of the Sex Pistols specifically.
That’s always the issue with this type of discussion: some folks get salty, and make it harder for the folks who are actually trying to have a productive discussion, who then have to over-qualify every freakin’ thing they want to say.
“essential” for the existence of the Sex Pistols. Hmm, they were a band that the Pistols saw as the big deal coming from New York that they had to check out. Obviously, the NY Dolls were at least as important to the Pistols because of Malcolm McLaren’s attempt to manage the Dolls around the time of their second album Too Much Too Soon, and bringing that experience back to London to apply to the band he wanted to start, who became the SP’s.
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### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/317 "2018-05-24T21:07:20Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> By the way, as to your argument - as always you offer a logical fallacy. How can one argue for the importance of something if your counter to any cites are “See, people like to write about them.”
>
> \*\*Argument From Ignorance or Non-Testable Hypothesis \*\*
> This is the fallacy that that which has not been proven false must or is likely to be true; however, the fallacy usually applies to concepts that haven’t yet been adequately tested or are beyond the realm of proof. Our legal system protects us from this fallacy under the presumption of innocence guideline – “innocent until proven guilty”. Religious beliefs are founded on this “fallacy”, but remember that a religious belief is, by definition, based on faith, rather than empirical proof or mathematical logic; that’s what the phrase “leap of faith” refers to.
>
> And you don’t know how much music I play. But thanks for attempting to say I’m all talk. Because that helps the conversation.
>
> By the way, the Dad Rock point is explained in the Pit. But you know that.
>
> I’m done discussing this here.
I hope we can leave religion out of it. You can go to the pit and vent about that.
You were the one that offered up “think pieces” and I needed to point out that critics were all about Ramones think pieces. It was in the environment and the source of the only success that the ramones did have. But we are talking about influence among musicians and not just writers. You are perfectly entitled to make a case for that too if you can.
BTW It’s very easy to know how much music you play. It’s not like you don’t share.
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### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/318 "2018-05-24T21:09:28Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> Dude: the fact that The Ramones ARE now Dad Rock is the whole fucking point. They’re that influential.
>
> But thanks for your analysis of me. You’re a great read of people.
Thanks for letting us in on the wisdom.
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### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/319 "2018-05-24T21:16:57Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> That’s always the issue with this type of discussion: some folks get salty, and make it harder for the folks who are actually trying to have a productive discussion, who then have to over-qualify every freakin’ thing they want to say.
>
> “essential” for the existence of the Sex Pistols. Hmm, they were a band that the Pistols saw as the big deal coming from New York that they had to check out. Obviously, the NY Dolls were at least as important to the Pistols because of Malcolm McLaren’s attempt to manage the Dolls around the time of their second album Too Much Too Soon, and bringing that experience back to London to apply to the band he wanted to start, who became the SP’s.
You are projecting here. Take a look at your Prince ventings or others and tell me you were trying to have a productive music discussion. You were avoiding the music and bringing back to comfortable topics for you. You appeal to other posters to pile on, and it leads absolutely nowhere for intelligent music chat. I think you like the ignorance and need to keep it in place. You are not seeking a productive discussion that I can see.
Have you ever talked about music on other forums more focused on that?
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-strongest-contenders-for-the-title-of-greatest-american-rock-band-ever/813547/320 "2018-05-24T21:23:17Z")
Take it to the Pit, twit. There’s 6 pages of comments on your behavior that you haven’t spoken to, and you’re trying to corner _me_? Hilarious.
Yeah, I discuss guitar playing - I’ve gotten no complaints, at all, except from you. I’ve been here over 15 years. You’ve been here a bit and pissed a ton of people off. Hmm.
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