# Who are the true liberal politicians and what defines liberal? {Please Dems only} **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922 "2006-04-16T23:37:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/1 "2006-04-16T23:37:50Z")
To prevent any further derailment of this thread by me: [McCain supporters: nauseous yet? (Falwell)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7304797#post7304797) and to help me understand what the Dems and Liberals of the SDMB mean by liberal please define, debate and offer your point of view of what a liberal politician is and why John Kerry apparently is not. I think of Kerry & Kennedy as Liberals, but it appears many members of this board do not. So apparently the definition of liberal as I grew up with does not match the mainstream of the SDMB at least. Jim ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/2 "2006-04-16T23:47:15Z")
To put this in perspective see this earlier thread, “What is the difference between a liberal and a leftist?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262432](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262432) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/3 "2006-04-16T23:47:30Z")
I realise you probably want a US perspective, but from here in the UK the Democrats appear as centre-right and the Republicans as right-wing. Over here a Liberal would support gun control, a National Health Service, a National TV service funded by taxation and Trade Unions. The situation would be even more pronounced in Scandanavia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/4 "2006-04-16T23:50:44Z")
Here’s a good starting point: If you are in any way affiliated with or supported by the Democratic Leadership Council – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic\_Leadership\_Council](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council) – or any of its associated organizations, think-tanks or publications, then you are not a liberal, you are a “neoliberal” – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberal) – which is a lot like a neoconservative except in foreign policy, and even there it’s hard to see a fundamental difference, only a difference in emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/5 "2006-04-16T23:53:39Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Over here a Liberal would support gun control, a National Health Service, a National TV service funded by taxation and Trade Unions. IIRC, the UK’s old Liberal Party merged with the Social Democrats to form the Liberal Democratic Party. Do the LibDems support all those things? Also, in the UK, what is a “liberal’s” view of foreign policy, in particular the Iraq War and the European Union? Has the old usage of “liberal” to mean “libertarian” entirely died out in Britain, as it has in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/6 "2006-04-16T23:56:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > To put this in perspective see this earlier thread, “What is the difference between a liberal and a leftist?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262432](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262432) Thank you, I will read through the entire thread and the Wiki articles, but fresh examples and arguments will be greatly appreciated also. **Glee** : Thank you, but I guess I really am concerned with the US. Interesting start: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I should add – liberals, in my opinion, differ from leftists in that they are concerned with less fundamental, more meliorative things: Affirmative action, the death penalty, welfare, Medicaid, gay marriage, gun regulation, indoor smoking bans, equal pay for women, etc. Liberals could get their way all the way on every one of these issues, and the distribution of wealth and, more importantly, of power in our society would remain exactly as it is now. Jim ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/7 "2006-04-17T00:21:49Z")
Strange disconnect I see, Not all greens are Liberals or leftist. There are Green Republicans (myself) and even some Green Conservatives. Conservatives can believe long term Fiscal health of the nation is tied to careful use of natural resources and replenishment of said. Protecting Coastal area, etc. Many Republicans are fairly liberal of Social issues but might be Hawks or very anti-welfare or some other issue. Thanks again **BrainGlutton** , that was a great and informative thread. I hope someone will chime in on the actual current politicians and explain John Kerry. Still looks liberal to me with some exceptions of course. I am having trouble with the Wiki on Neo-Liberal: > [@wiki](#): > > Who is a neoliberal? > As with many political terms, since the word is used in different ways by different groups, different people can be classified in different ways based on it. The most restrictive definition of neoliberal is “laissez-faire, capital market driven, privatization and trade arrangements.” Under this specific form, neoliberalism is a business-conservative policy aimed at enforcing stringent budget discipline on developed and developing nations by requiring, for all but the US, balanced budgets and trade flows. This is based on a specific interpretation of the Mundell-Fleming model and is most associated with the Washington Consensus. In these terms the prominent neoliberals are people such as Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Bill Clinton, Robert Barro, and Alan Greenspan. . This doesn’t add up or make sense to me. I don’t see lumping Clinton in. I might as well link to the Wiki article on Liberalism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal) Sounds like it will be hard to get an agreement on what is and who are the liberals. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/8 "2006-04-17T00:27:56Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > Strange disconnect I see, Not all greens are Liberals or leftist. There are Green Republicans (myself) and even some Green Conservatives. Only if you equate “green” with “environmentalist.” If you capitalize it, then you are talking about a definite political formation/tendency, represented by two established political parties in the United States. [http://www.gp.org/](http://www.gp.org/). [http://www.greenparty.org/](http://www.greenparty.org/). > [@What Exit?](#): > > This doesn’t add up or make sense to me. I don’t see lumping Clinton in. What? Clinton was a pro-business conservative as much as Reagan was. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/9 "2006-04-17T01:04:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Only if you equate “green” with “environmentalist.” If you capitalize it, then you are talking about a definite political formation/tendency, represented by two established political parties in the United States. [http://www.gp.org/](http://www.gp.org/). [http://www.greenparty.org/](http://www.greenparty.org/). I have voted green party quite often, including Nader in 2000. I know more Republicans that voted for Nader in 2000 then Democrats. Overall, the moderate Republicans I know felt disenfranchised by the Bush side of the party and were part of environmental groups. As this is only anecdotal and I am a member of several Environmental groups, I understand my experience was probably not typical. > [@](#): > > What? Clinton was a pro-business conservative as much as Reagan was. Part of the Wiki Definition mentioned “It opposes socialism, protectionism and environmentalism.” I agree Clinton appeared opposed to socialism & protectionism \*\*but not \*\* environmentalism. Reagan and Thatcher were opposed to all 3. The way Clinton went after Big Tobacco and Microsoft does not seem to fit the definition either and finally, he tried to get UHC in place. Jim ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/10 "2006-04-17T22:08:33Z")
One time Bump before this thread dies away. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/11 "2006-04-17T22:32:28Z")
You’re falling for the “no true liberal” fallacy. 🙂 “Liberal” isn’t a group you get to join with a hierarchy to set the rules, so “liberal” means pretty much whatever people want it to mean. The real problem (for the Democrats) is that the Republicans have been successful in turning “liberal” into a pejorative, for the most part, and very few politicians in the US will self indentify as a liberal. Not so with “conservative”, which is a label worn proudly by many in the GOP. You’re probably better off using it as relative marker: \* Kennedy is more liberal than Kerry\*, for example. You’re unlikely to get any reasonable size group to agree on who is and who isn’t a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/12 "2006-04-17T22:36:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You’re falling for the “no true liberal” fallacy. 🙂 “Liberal” isn’t a group you get to join with a hierarchy to set the rules, so “liberal” means pretty much whatever people want it to mean. The real problem (for the Democrats) is that the Republicans have been successful in turning “liberal” into a pejorative, for the most part, and very few politicians in the US will self indentify as a liberal. Not so with “conservative”, which is a label worn proudly by many in the GOP. > > You’re probably better off using it as relative marker: \* Kennedy is more liberal than Kerry\*, for example. You’re unlikely to get any reasonable size group to agree on who is and who isn’t a liberal. You’ve hit it on the head. On the continuum of economic/socail/political leanings, the terms “liberal” and “conservative” are useful only as markers of your location _relative to someone or something else_. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/13 "2006-04-17T23:14:21Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > You’ve hit it on the head. On the continuum of economic/socail/political leanings, the terms “liberal” and “conservative” are useful only as markers of your location _relative to someone or something else_. :dubious: What, if every other member of Congress were to the left of Bernie Sanders, that would make Sanders a conservative? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/14 "2006-04-17T23:35:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: What, if every other member of Congress were to the left of Bernie Sanders, that would make Sanders a conservative? I don’t think so. In such a scenario, Sanders would not be a conservative in terms of his political ideology but he would be relatively more conservatice than everybody else in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/15 "2006-04-18T06:07:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > IIRC, the UK’s old Liberal Party merged with the Social Democrats to form the Liberal Democratic Party. Do the LibDems support all those things? Also, in the UK, what is a “liberal’s” view of foreign policy, in particular the Iraq War and the European Union? > **[Liberal Democrats](https://www.libdems.org.uk/)** > > Demand better for our country. - 10 Good reasons to vote liberal democrat WE OPPOSE: Putting targets first WE PROPOSE: Putting patients first Faster diagnosis so your NHS treatment can start more quickly WE OPPOSE: Tuition fees & top up fees WE PROPOSE: Scrapping student fees Further education affordable to every student WE OPPOSE: Compulsory I.D. Cards WE PROPOSE: Spending the money on 10,000 more police Funded by scrapping compulsory I.D. cards WE OPPOSE: Selling your home to pay for care WE PROPOSE: Free personal care for the elderly No one forced to sell their home to pay for care WE OPPOSE: Ignoring climate change WE PROPOSE: Cleaner transport & cleaner energy Cleaner transport, cleaner energy and a cleaner environment WE OPPOSE: £1.5 billion on the child trust fund WE PROPOSE: £1.5 billion towards reducing class sizes Spend the £1.5 billion Child Trust Fund when it matters most WE OPPOSE: Means-testing pensioners WE PROPOSE: £100 extra per month starting with the over 75s A million pensioners off means-testing WE OPPOSE: Hidden tax increases WE PROPOSE: Only one tax increase - on income above £100,000 per year Only one tax increase on income over £100,000 WE OPPOSE: Unfair council tax WE PROPOSE: Local income tax, saving typical households £450 per year Local Income Tax is both fair and affordable WE OPPOSE: Bush & Blair on Iraq WE PROPOSE: Never again It’s time to restore trust in government.\* Pro Europe as well (Very) ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/16 "2006-04-18T06:26:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > [http://www.libdems.org.uk/](http://www.libdems.org.uk/) > > - > > 10 Good reasons to vote liberal democrat > > WE OPPOSE: > Putting targets first > WE PROPOSE: > Putting patients first > Faster diagnosis so your NHS treatment can start more quickly > > WE OPPOSE: > Tuition fees & top up fees > WE PROPOSE: > Scrapping student fees > Further education affordable to every student > > WE OPPOSE: > Compulsory I.D. Cards > WE PROPOSE: > Spending the money on 10,000 more police > Funded by scrapping compulsory I.D. cards > > WE OPPOSE: > Selling your home to pay for care > WE PROPOSE: > Free personal care for the elderly > No one forced to sell their home to pay for care > > WE OPPOSE: > Ignoring climate change > WE PROPOSE: > Cleaner transport & cleaner energy > Cleaner transport, cleaner energy and a cleaner environment > > WE OPPOSE: > £1.5 billion on the child trust fund > WE PROPOSE: > £1.5 billion towards reducing class sizes > Spend the £1.5 billion Child Trust Fund when it matters most > > WE OPPOSE: > Means-testing pensioners > WE PROPOSE: > £100 extra per month starting with the over 75s > A million pensioners off means-testing > > WE OPPOSE: > Hidden tax increases > WE PROPOSE: > Only one tax increase - on income above £100,000 per year > Only one tax increase on income over £100,000 > > WE OPPOSE: > Unfair council tax > WE PROPOSE: > Local income tax, saving typical households £450 per year > Local Income Tax is both fair and affordable > > WE OPPOSE: > Bush & Blair on Iraq > WE PROPOSE: > Never again > It’s time to restore trust in government.\* > Pro Europe as well (Very) Judging from your link, it appears that the LibDems are now politically to the left of Labour (or at least Blair) whereas they used to work the center (both together and as separate parties). Is this perception correct? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/17 "2006-04-18T07:50:48Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Judging from your link, it appears that the LibDems are now politically to the left of Labour (or at least Blair) whereas they used to work the center (both together and as separate parties). Is this perception correct? Way to the left of Blair and left of Labour also. But far more libertarian than Blair and Labour equally- Labour has a quite anti-libertarian tinge and always has had. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/18 "2006-04-18T12:24:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What? Clinton was a pro-business conservative as much as Reagan was. Why do you say this? Clinton seemed much more inclined to allow new regulation, particularly in environmental areas, and passed, for example, the Family and Medical Leave Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act which would disqualify him from being a pro-business conservative. Nor do I recall business being too enamored with his universal medical care plan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/19 "2006-04-18T21:46:33Z")
> [@Do Not Taunt](#): > > Why do you say this? Clinton seemed much more inclined to allow new regulation, particularly in environmental areas, and passed, for example, the Family and Medical Leave Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act which would disqualify him from being a pro-business conservative. Nor do I recall business being too enamored with his universal medical care plan. The legislation you mention might “disqualify” Clinton from being considered a strict pro-market economic libertarian – but pro- **market** and pro- **business** are two different things, and not all businesscritters oppose this kind of legislation. There are even “green Republicans,” some. Opposition to Clinton’s far-from-universal health care plan came from the insurance industry (for obvious reasons), the Republican Party (for strategic reasons as much as anything else) and movement conservatives (for ideological reasons), not from the business community in general. (I’m sure many businesses would have welcomed it, if it relieved them from responsibility for providing their employees with health benefits.) It also failed because of (quite reasonable, IMO) opposition from the left, as an overly complex, halfway solution, compared to Canadian-style single-payer health care. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922/20 "2006-04-19T06:08:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The legislation you mention might “disqualify” Clinton from being considered a strict pro-market economic libertarian – but pro- **market** and pro- **business** are two different things, and not all businesscritters oppose this kind of legislation. There are even “green Republicans,” some. Of course some “businesscritters” might have supported the FMLA and the ADA - but are you asserting that this was actually a majority opinion in the business community? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Opposition to Clinton’s far-from-universal health care plan came from the insurance industry (for obvious reasons), the Republican Party (for strategic reasons as much as anything else) and movement conservatives (for ideological reasons), **not from the business community in general.** (I’m sure many businesses would have welcomed it, if it relieved them from responsibility for providing their employees with health benefits.) It also failed because of (quite reasonable, IMO) opposition from the left, as an overly complex, halfway solution, compared to Canadian-style single-payer health care. (emphasis mine) Not my recollection: here’s at least one cite confirming ultimate business opposition to the Clinton plan: [What Happened to Health Care Reform?](http://www.princeton.edu/~starr/20starr.html) > [@Paul Starr](#): > > Business groups did not become implacable opponents of the Clinton plan immediately after its release in October 1993. It took several months for them to resolve their own differences and uncertainties. By midwinter, they were decisively against the president’s plan; by late spring, they wanted nothing to pass. While I think these are interesting examples to discuss (and it’s always fun to relive the early 90s), I brought them up to counter-illustrate why I think Clinton was not as pro-business as Reagan. But to be honest, your claim struck me as extraordinarily bizarre. I think most people would intuitively rank Reagan as significantly more pro-business than Clinton. I’d actually like to hear you elaborate on why you think otherwise. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-true-liberal-politicians-and-what-defines-liberal-please-dems-only/352922.md?page=2)