# Who are the worst Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211 "2008-12-21T19:37:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/81 "2008-12-22T16:57:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Aldrich Ames and Robert Hansen. It’s not just that the betrayed America and got people killed. It’s that they did it for almost no reason. No ideology. No higher purpose. They crossed the line from “misguided” to “truly sick.” Money is a powerful motivator. Robin ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/82 "2008-12-22T17:00:55Z")
Cut the crap. You obviously do remember, and no doubt are quite glad of the erasure of the archives. Just ftr, the “jury” members from Stephen Benet’s "[The Devil and Daniel Webster"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_and_Daniel_Webster): Walter Butler, a Loyalist Simon Girty, a Loyalist Indian chief Metacomet, referred to as “King Philip”. Governor Thomas Dale Thomas Morton, a rival of the Plymouth Pilgrims. The pirate Edward Teach, also known as “Blackbeard”. Reverend John Smeet But that was written a couple of centuries of evildoing ago. Only Blackbeard and maybe King Philip are even known anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/83 "2008-12-22T17:04:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Cut the crap. You obviously do remember, and no doubt are quite glad of the erasure of the archives. Nonsense. I am aware of no erasure. And if I said anything untoward about the Secretary-designate, it was merely heat-of-the-campaign rhetoric, and nothing more. If she’s okay by Obama, she’s okay by me. I still refuse to believe, however, that I allowed your particular misspelling to stew for five minutes without taking appropriate action. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/84 "2008-12-22T17:21:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > His [March to the Sea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_March_to_the_Sea). That was wantonly destructive of property, which was the point, but there was nothing in it you could call an atrocity or war crime. “Scorched-Earth” tactics are perfectly acceptable in the canons of civilized warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/85 "2008-12-22T17:47:22Z")
Much of the property he destroyed was livestock and agriculture. He left behind starvation, poverty, and ruin. That’s not even to mention the people who died trying to follow him to freedom. I don’t intend to argue with you about the ethics of his rampage, as one man’s dead insurgent is another man’s beloved son. But it is without question that he wanted people to suffer, for no reason other than resisting his destruction of their homes and businesses. As he himself boasted, “We are not only fighting armies, but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war, as well as their organized armies.” Top ten, in my view. Number four, specifically. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/86 "2008-12-22T17:54:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Much of the property he destroyed was livestock and agriculture. He left behind starvation, poverty, and ruin. That’s not even to mention the people who died trying to follow him to freedom. I don’t intend to argue with you about the ethics of his rampage, as one man’s dead insurgent is another man’s beloved son. But it is without question that he wanted people to suffer, for no reason other than resisting his destruction of their homes and businesses. As he himself boasted, “We are not only fighting armies, but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war, as well as their organized armies.” Top ten, in my view. Number four, specifically. Except that he was completely correct. You cannot condemn him without condemning all the generals and admirals of world war 2. You cannot condemn him without essentially surrendering to bad men everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/87 "2008-12-22T17:58:43Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Maybe I’m cranky because of the weather, so I apologize for my cranky tone, but the only response I can come with is “Please reread for comprehension. Thank you.” > > ETA: Actually I withdraw the apology. Your cavalier dismissal of the effect of such contributors to the cultural landscape as Phelps is pretty much a dismissal of the life experience of me and millions of others like me. So I think the crank is justified. Lissener, I am completely on your side as it relates to gay rights, but this is pretty unfair. RickJay also didn’t put FDR on the list, who signed Executive Order 9066, which stripped 110,000 Japanese Americans of all of their civil rights. He also didn’t list that sick bastard who raped and murdered 12 yr old Polly Klaas, or serial child predator Joseph Edward Duncan…but I don’t think that means RickJay is dismissing the life experiences and suffering of these victims. He’s just using different criteria. You two may have some bad blood or history between you, I dont’ know-but your comments taken at face value seem unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/88 "2008-12-22T18:07:04Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Except that he was completely correct. You cannot condemn him without condemning all the generals and admirals of world war 2. You cannot condemn him without essentially surrendering to bad men everywhere. Your response is positively stunning in its ethical frigidity. No one in my family ever owned slaves, and the same is true of most Southern people. It did not matter to Sherman whether people were already poor and suffereing, or in the case of many, not even involved in the dispute between Northern land-grabbers and Southern land-grabbers. If I must condemn the whole world to condemn him too, then so be it. His deeds are not mitigated by the fact that condemning them is inconvenient or impractical. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/89 "2008-12-22T18:10:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Meh. The Soviets would have had the Bomb soon enough with no help from spies; they had plenty of good physicists. > > 😕 What harm did [he](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mandell_House) ever do America?! House? Read his novel “Phillip Dru: Administrator”- his fictional program for “democratic socialist revolution” in America that set us up for Welfare Statism, Corporate Socialism & Globalism. Also, he was the man who launched the U.S. branch of the Fabian-Socialist Anglo-Internationalist “Round Table”- the Council on Foreign Relations. Like I said, he may have been a misguided idealist, or as Thomas Jefferson called Adam Weishaupt, “an enthusiastic philanthropist” (which was not necessarily as complimentary as it sounds today.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/90 "2008-12-22T18:16:32Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > House? Read his novel “Phillip Dru: Administrator”- his fictional program for “democratic socialist revolution” in America that set us up for Welfare Statism, Corporate Socialism & Globalism. Also, he was the man who launched the U.S. branch of the Fabian-Socialist Anglo-Internationalist “Round Table”- the Council on Foreign Relations. So he wrote a [badly-written polemical novel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Dru:_Administrator) hardly anyone reads, then or now. (Which novel, BTW, advocated for [progressivism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_era) (as the term then was used), **not** socialism.) BFD. And what harm has the [**CFR**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_foreign_relations) ever done America?! 😕 I have a feeling I’m going to regret asking that . . . ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/91 "2008-12-22T18:34:01Z")
Deleted as it’s repeated below ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/92 "2008-12-22T18:35:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And what harm has the [**CFR**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_foreign_relations) ever done America?! 😕 > I have a feeling I’m going to regret asking that . . . Naw- you can look it up for yourself. _G_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/93 "2008-12-22T18:40:34Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Naw- you can look it up for yourself. _G_ I did, on Wikipedia. There’s nothing there. And I **know** from your own accounts in this Forum that you’ve outgrown the John Birch Society crankiness of your younger days, so what’s that leave? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/94 "2008-12-22T18:43:21Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I don’t know what kind of criteria you guys are using for worst American ever but I don’t think you’re on the right track, Fred Phelps? LBJ? Noam Chomsky? > > This is like a ‘greatest movie ever made’ thread in which everyone’s offering is one of _The Lord of the Rings_ movies. Yes, and it’s remarkable that many of the _worst-of-the-worst of all time_ happened to hold or promote views in direct conflict with those of the poster nominating them. Edward Mandell House? Are you fucking kidding me? I may as well propose Billy Graham or Sylvia Browne. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/95 "2008-12-22T18:57:17Z")
My candidates: **John C. Calhoun** - Introduced the philosophy that slavery was a “positive good” and thus set the nation on a path to war. **Joe McCarthy** - Raised innuendo to a wicked art form. **Rush Limbaugh** - Perfected McCarthy’s art, and added outright lying to the palette. **Phil Sheridan** - Did to the Shenendoah Valley what Sherman did to the deep South, but his evil had more to do with his treatment of western tribes after the Civil War. (“The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.”) **Dick Cheney** - Turned the US into a torture state, and tried to set it on a path to becoming a police state. **Aaron Burr** - An even more evil VP than Dick Cheney! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/96 "2008-12-22T19:05:04Z")
I have a problem with including Benedict Arnold on the list, really. Yes, he did get miffed at not getting the glory he deserved for leading the rebel victory at Saratoga while it went instead to Horatio Gates, who choked there, but consider: - At that time Arnold turned his coat, the cause did look pretty dim, and his decision could easily be seen as that of a patriotic British citizen, if perhaps a little ahead of schedule. (“Treason is simply a matter of dates.” - Talleyrand) - Without Saratoga, the rebellion would have been over by then anyway. American independence is owed to Arnold as much as it is owed to almost anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/97 "2008-12-22T19:34:19Z")
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the Ken Lays, Dennis Kozlowskis, and Bernard Madoffs of the world. Greedy, psychotic liars who wiped out a lot of prosperity for a lot of people solely to enrich themselves. I’d also like to give special mention to General William Westmoreland and the other top brass of the military during Vietnam. Never has a more callous and ignorant group of men ascended to positions of power in our military at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/98 "2008-12-22T20:36:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Nonsense. I am aware of no erasure. And if I said anything untoward about the Secretary-designate, it was merely heat-of-the-campaign rhetoric, and nothing more. If she’s okay by Obama, she’s okay by me. I still refuse to believe, however, that I allowed your particular misspelling to stew for five minutes without taking appropriate action. It’s here. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9833143&highlight=fucking+beast+revelation#post9833143](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9833143&highlight=fucking+beast+revelation#post9833143) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/99 "2008-12-22T21:21:23Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > **Aaron Burr** - An even more evil VP than Dick Cheney! Well, he **tried** to be . . . but [it didn’t work out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_conspiracy) . . . and that was after he left office anyway. (Burr and Cheney, BTW, are the only two VPOTUSes I know of who shot somebody while in office.) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/100 "2008-12-22T21:37:09Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Even if those figures are correct (and I would argue otherwise) you’d have to balance that with the number of Iraqis that would have died at the hands of Hussein’s regime. That’s bullshit. Iraq has been an unqualified disaster for America and for Iraq. Iraq is in a state of war which did not exist with Saddam Hussein. How many Iraqis was Saddam Hussein killing? The number of dead, crippled, refugees etc have increased exponentially and America has destroyed and laid waste to Iraq. I cannot think of any other president who was so criminally incompetent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211.md?page=6)