# Who are the worst Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211 "2008-12-21T19:37:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/101 "2008-12-22T21:53:38Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Your response is positively stunning in its ethical frigidity. No one in my family ever owned slaves, and the same is true of most Southern people. It did not matter to Sherman whether people were already poor and suffereing, or in the case of many, not even involved in the dispute between Northern land-grabbers and Southern land-grabbers. If I must condemn the whole world to condemn him too, then so be it. His deeds are not mitigated by the fact that condemning them is inconvenient or impractical. So? Most Germans never personally murdered a Jew, but they still got bombed out of house and home by Allied Command, and in far greater numbers than were suffered by the South. Surely, then, Eisenhower is a greater evil than Sherman? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/102 "2008-12-22T22:54:12Z")
I already addressed that point — in the very paragraph you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/103 "2008-12-23T00:04:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > WT **F?!!** While I in no way agree with **Rune** as far as Carter belonging on this list, I do know what he’s talking about. There are some people of the neo-nazi persuasion that have taken to thinking highly of Carter due to their perception that he is anti-Israel. Still, a pretty silly reason to put him on the list. A bit like demonizing the Beatles because of Charles Manson. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/104 "2008-12-23T00:49:18Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I believe that most of the neocons did honestly believe that the overthrowing Saddam would make Iraq a better place, and that it would be a net gain for human rights. That belief was dumb, naive, short-sighted, and arrogant. They failed to think critically about it or to learn the lessons of history, but they honestly believed it. > > I believe that communist supporters such as Hiss and the Rosenbergs did honestly believe that communism would make the world a better place. They were appallingly naive and willing to ignore the evidence of atrocities committed by the Soviets, but they honestly believed it. > > I don’t believe that Hitchens has any good intentions at all. He’s an egomaniac who takes delight in saying the most harmful nasty, and outrageous things he can imagine, merely because he likes to hurt people. To that end, he’ll support anybody in the world who’s willing to attack the things that Hitchens hates, at any time, for any reason. For the Iraq war, he was quite willing to abandon everything he’d supposedly stood for and run to the other end of the political spectrum to get on board with the latest train of destruction and chaos. While he’s devoted much of his life to his hatred of Christianity, freedom, democracy, capitalism, and global stability, I’ve never seen any evidence that he likes any other things. This is very unfair. Hitchens has been supporting the Kurdish cause for years and years and this undoubtedly influenced him to think the war in Iraq was justified. He was wrong, of course. But to characterise him as someone who joys in destruction above all else as opposed to the stupid but well-meaning neocons is bizarre. Cites: [Holiday in Iraq | Vanity Fair](http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/04/hitchens200704) - an article from April 2007 on a ‘holiday in Iraq’ [Amazon.co.uk](http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Borders-Bleed-Struggle-Kurds/dp/0701162759/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229992737&sr=8-1) - Hitchens introduced this 1994 book which documents in pictures the struggle of the Kurds On other things he likes that aren’t being mean to Mother Theresa - the cause of the Palestinians, which was one factor in him supporting Obama over McCain: McCain’s slander of Rashid Khalidi to be more specific. Cite: [John McCain's appalling attack on Rashid Khalidi.](http://www.slate.com/id/2203619/) ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/105 "2008-12-23T01:00:41Z")
Three pages and nobody has mentioned Ayn Rand yet? Purveyor of the vile who continues to warp minds (although I suspect fewer of them now than was once the case) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/106 "2008-12-23T01:15:00Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I already addressed that point — in the very paragraph you quoted. I don’t believe that you did, **Liberal**. You did indicate a willingness to define evil as broadly as necessary to include Sherman. But you didn’t address the fact that, even by that standard, Sherman does not rate very high in the pantheon of American villains, as there are many generals from our nation who have used the same tactics as Sherman, to much greater effect. If such acts are evil by definition, then Sherman, far from being the fourth most evil American in history, is a mere footnote beside such monsters as Dwight Eisenhower or Franklin Roosevelt. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/107 "2008-12-23T01:38:33Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Three pages and nobody has mentioned Ayn Rand yet? Purveyor of the vile who continues to warp minds (although I suspect fewer of them now than was once the case) She was born in Russia though, even though she became a citizen we can blame her on them.😉 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/108 "2008-12-23T01:55:39Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Three pages and nobody has mentioned Ayn Rand yet? Purveyor of the vile who continues to warp minds (although I suspect fewer of them now than was once the case) Again, though, how many people has Ayn Rand actually hurt? She never became leader of anything, never assumed a position of power, and her philosophy is popular largely among college students and people with a lot of time on their hands. You never hear about people shot or imprisoned by an Objectivist regime, because there aren’t any and there never will be. Logically, L. Ron Hubbard would be a better choice along the “authors who hurt people with their words” category. Scientology is a pretty small cult relatively speaking, but at least you can point to actual people it has damaged, and Hubbard legitimately did take an active role in founding it. [QUOTE=Miller] … then Sherman, far from being the fourth most evil American in history, is a mere footnote beside such monsters as Dwight Eisenhower or Franklin Roosevelt. [/QUOTE] Or, it seems to me, Ulysses S. Grant, Sherman’s commander. Does he not bear responsibility for the actions of his subordinate, which he certainly did not disapprove of? ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/109 "2008-12-23T02:00:45Z")
Jimmy Carter. Proof that Engineers make shitty presidents. Did any one person give a Country such a buzz kill as this guy? Hell, he still does. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/110 "2008-12-23T02:07:34Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Much of the property he destroyed was livestock and agriculture. He left behind starvation, poverty, and ruin. That’s not even to mention the people who died trying to follow him to freedom. I don’t intend to argue with you about the ethics of his rampage, as one man’s dead insurgent is another man’s beloved son. But it is without question that he wanted people to suffer, for no reason other than resisting his destruction of their homes and businesses. As he himself boasted, “We are not only fighting armies, but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war, as well as their organized armies.” Top ten, in my view. Number four, specifically. Sherman looked at it (rightly, in my view) that unless Deep South southerners personally felt the horrors of war they would attempt to continue it. His march almost certainly shortened the war. The citizens clamoring for slavery and secession like [Edmund Ruffin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Ruffin) were much worse than Sherman. > [@sailor](#): > > That’s bullshit. Iraq has been an unqualified disaster for America and for Iraq. Iraq is in a state of war which did not exist with Saddam Hussein. How many Iraqis was Saddam Hussein killing? The number of dead, crippled, refugees etc have increased exponentially and America has destroyed and laid waste to Iraq. I cannot think of any other president who was so criminally incompetent. I totally disagree. Bush’s invasion was poorly conceived and executed but it in no way compares to the horrors of Hussein’s regime. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/111 "2008-12-23T02:31:30Z")
> [@alexandra](#): > > On other things he likes that aren’t being mean to Mother Theresa - . . . Actually I think Hitchens had a **point** about Mother Theresa – that she loved poverty, not the poor. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/112 "2008-12-23T02:40:06Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I totally disagree. Bush’s invasion was poorly conceived and executed but it in no way compares to the horrors of Hussein’s regime. :dubious: Nobody, least of all Michael Moore or his fanbase, has any illusions about what kind of ruler Hussein was. We all know about the mass graves and the brutal suppression of rebellions and the network of part-time secret-police informants. Nevertheless, Hussein’s iron fist at least allowed Iraqis of different nationalities and religions to live together more or less peacefully in a society that **worked.** If you just kept your mouth shut about politics (and, if an attractive woman, escaped the notice of Uday and Qusay) you could live your life in safety, and walk the streets in safety, and find a good job and enough food, clean water and health care, and women were **almost** the equals of men, so far as they can be in any Islamic country. And Bush went in and wrecked all of that – wrecked it recklessly and brutally and stupidly. It would be hard to find an average Iraqi outside Tikrit who misses Hussein, but it would be even harder to find one who does not wish the invasion had never happened. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/113 "2008-12-23T02:57:39Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Even if those figures are correct (and I would argue otherwise) you’d have to balance that with the number of Iraqis that would have died at the hands of Hussein’s regime. The question concerned the worst American. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/114 "2008-12-23T02:59:49Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Sherman looked at it (rightly, in my view) that unless Deep South southerners personally felt the horrors of war they would attempt to continue it. I believe they’d felt them for quite some time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/115 "2008-12-23T03:01:06Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > The question concerned the worst American. And if Bush is named for title, measuring the damage he did Iraq against the damage Hussein did Iraq is relevant. And Hussein has all the advantage of the comparison. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/116 "2008-12-23T03:13:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And if Bush is named for title, measuring the damage he did Iraq against the damage Hussein did Iraq is relevant. > > And Hussein has all the advantage of the comparison. Even so, Hussein isn’t or wasn’t an American. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/117 "2008-12-23T03:19:11Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Even so, Hussein isn’t or wasn’t an American. Nor was he nominated; the comparison remains relevant in assessing **Bush.** ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/118 "2008-12-23T04:34:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Nobody, least of all Michael Moore or his fanbase, has any illusions about what kind of ruler Hussein was. We all know about the mass graves and the brutal suppression of rebellions and the network of part-time secret-police informants. Nevertheless, Hussein’s iron fist at least allowed Iraqis of different nationalities and religions to live together more or less peacefully in a society that **worked.** If you just kept your mouth shut about politics (and, if an attractive woman, escaped the notice of Uday and Qusay) you could live your life in safety, and walk the streets in safety, and find a good job and enough food, clean water and health care, and women were **almost** the equals of men, so far as they can be in any Islamic country. And Bush went in and wrecked all of that – wrecked it recklessly and brutally and stupidly. You left out being gassed for being a Kurd or a kept from political and economic prosperity for being Sunni. Hussein routinely used torture and assassination. He kept the “peace” through fear and intimidation. I am no Bush apologist; I was against the invasion from the beginning and I still believe it to be a colossal mistake. I believe, however, that it needs to be held in perspective, that even with the mistakes a brutal and evil dictator was replaced. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It would be hard to find an average Iraqi outside Tikrit who misses Hussein, but it would be even harder to find one who does not wish the invasion had never happened. I’d like to see a cite for that. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe they’d felt them for quite some time. > 🙂 Not enough to demand and end to the war, though. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/119 "2008-12-23T04:40:16Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Three pages and nobody has mentioned Ayn Rand yet? Purveyor of the vile who continues to warp minds (although I suspect fewer of them now than was once the case) By now it’s obvious that this thread has become a joke. If Ayn Rand could be the worst American, then I guess so could Walt Disney. Disney built a mega-capitalistic empire that methodically warped the minds of innocent children, by showing them pictures of bizarrely humanoid animals who could not only talk, but unleash upon each other violent acts that mere humans could only dream of . . . often with no consequences whatsoever. And many of them ran around with no pants, yet strangely devoid of genitals, causing kids to have negative ideas about their own bodies. He taught kids that a cricket can substitute for a conscience. He ridiculed people (or ducks) with speech impediments. He taught little girls that all their happiness required was meeting the right Prince Charming . . . provided they are pretty and white. He turned people of color into insulting caricatures, and didn’t portray even one openly-gay person. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211/120 "2008-12-23T07:09:07Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > While I in no way agree with **Rune** as far as Carter belonging on this list, I do know what he’s talking about. There are some people of the neo-nazi persuasion that have taken to thinking highly of Carter due to their perception that he is anti-Israel. > > Still, a pretty silly reason to put him on the list. A bit like demonizing the Beatles because of Charles Manson. Wow, that’s a strech. What, he negotiated a peace accord with Israel’s most powerful neighbor at Camp David that has lasted since 1979? What an anti-semetic bastard! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-are-the-worst-americans/478211.md?page=7)