But what do you all do when one loyalty comes into conflict, as it inevitably must, with another? That’s really what I’m trying to ask.
Like, if one of my kids liked the NY Rangers?
Well, that’s an easy one for me. You let the kid like the hockey team because your loyalty to the kid is far greater than your loyalty to some other hockey team.
I hope.
But what if your loyalty to your religion comes into conflict with your loyalty to your spouse or your country?
Even if it’s the Rangers?
More seriously, I don’t really have loyalty to organizations like religions or sports teams. I enjoy watching the Islanders and I’ll follow them with gusto, but if they, say, tried to overturn an election, I’d drop them.
I truly don’t understand loyalty to political parties, unless you’re in the organization and it’s your job or you’re running for something. I know people at work who proclaim they are a Republican or Democrat, and I don’t get it. I’m a registered Democrat because they’re more closely aligned and I want to vote in primaries, but if they, say, started supporting a corrupt felon for president, I’d drop them.
Religion involves a ton of indoctrination, so I sort of get why people get so attached to it. But, if I had some religion and it got between me and my family, it’s not even a close call.
I don’t like loyalty. I see it as tending to put personal connections and who you know above right and wrong. I do tend to rely on what I already know about a person or group when interpreting what they do, which translates into benefit of the doubt in some cases, but that’s as far as loyalty goes with me as far as I know.
I really like the way Moral Foundations Theory understands loyalty and other elements of morality. My MFT result puts me far, far to the left on the political spectrum, which is consistent with low appreciation for loyalty.
Years ago, here on the Dope, one of the mothers posted that when her child was born, she whispered to the child, “I would die for you.“
With various degrees of loyalty, from the most downward: my kids, my wife, some of my family back home, a couple of my friends and then I’m not really sure.
I’ve never been a diehard fan of any particular team. I sat out during the cola wars and I didn’t mind drinking new Coke.
Devotion rather than loyalty is used to describe religion, and I was absolutely, 100% devoted to Mormonism when I was a growing up.
After I discovered that it wasn’t what I had been led to believe, I don’t think I could be blindly loyal to any organization again.
This. And my wife though she is not dependent on me. But my wife and my dog show 100% loyalty to me.
Also, my two best friends. While we might live hours away from each other they will always be there for me.
Loyalty is a way to cede decisions to others and to free yourself of the responsibility of your actions.
Ultimately, you are the decision maker with the ability to affect the world to the limit that you’re able to achieve. Within that, you have opportunities to do things that will help or hinder multiple things all at once. You can decide to do those in any combination that you choose.
Personally, I recommend paying attention to everything and working to advance everything that you can, while minimizing harm to everything as best you can. Just saying, “Well, I’m on Team Orange. I’ll just do whatever the rest of Team Orange is doing or whatever they tell be to do.” Is just, as said, mental laziness not some enlightened “loyalty”.
How are you guys defining loyalty? Because I don’t see being loyal as synonymous with blindly following nor do I see it as flowing in only one direction.
How is this even a question really? You decide it like you do any other moral decision.
Elevating loyalty to some absolute is delusional and an exercise in futility. That is not how ethics, loyalty, or quite frankly anything works.
Even if you subscribe to a rigid teleological ethics like divine command, in practice most people use the principles of utility to navigate such decisions.
I am loyal to our employees and partners at my business for example. We work together to achieve common benefit and such histories mean something. Sometimes that means doing things for an individual that are no concern of the business or myself personally but are well worth it for yhe health of the community. When things go south we work through it as best we can. If things go too far south, then sometimes a decision has to be made for the best interest of the larger community. I have to fire people sometimes. I hate it, but if it is necessary for the health of the business and everyone else that is dependent on it, it is something I do.
Loyalty is trust. I trust my best friends, and Wife to do everything they possibly can to get me out of a tight spot. They know I would do the same. It’s a two way street.
I became loyal to Donald J Trump, but only after my full-frontal lobotomy.
This above all: to thine own self be true,/ And it must follow, as the night the day,/ Thou canst not then be false to any man
I think I’m loyal to my family and country - in my own way (after all, they’re the only ones I’ve got - mind you, I’m hanging on to my grandfather’s Scottish birth certificate, just in case the country collapses in a heap).
I’m loyal to whoever is loyal to me. My family is loyal to me, as are my friends. My country, despite its flaws (and I mean my country, not my government) is still loyal to me. So I’m loyal to them.
I try not to allow my loyalty to supersede my personal morality, though.
yes but when push comes to shove, are you more Mormon or more a historian? More Republican or more Catholic? These sorts of conflicts arise constantly, and sometimes it’s good to know in advance where your greater loyalty lies. Helpful in figuring out what decisions you’re comfortable with.
Easy. Which one has more Bacon? Go with that.
I also struggle with loyalty as a concept. It would seem to mean that I will stick with this person/entity and defend them despite this other thing that would normally be a dealbreaker.
It’s just not how I think of things. I’m sure the way I act would be seen by some as loyalty to my friends. But to me it’s just that they’re my friend, and I know them better. I can defend them better. I can understand their mistakes better.
It’s just not this extra concept that I need to concern myself with when deciding what I should or shouldn’t do.
I agree.
I find the idea of loyalty to be a broken philosophy that at best is a useless lie people tell themselves, and at worst propagates harm to everyone involved.
Loyalty can have a lot of connotations, and because of those connotations, I don’t find it a useful synonym to use in place of (excuse mismatched parts of speech) commitment, support, compassion, faithfulness, honesty, or dedication. Treating people well, or prioritizing choices that help others as much as is reasonable, are not useful understandings of loyalty. I get what you’re saying @FluffyBob , but I don’t see how your description of your own loyalty to the people in your business leads to actions that an un-loyal person wouldn’t take. It sounds like you have care for the people and the business, try to support both, but for the sake of the business sometimes have to put the business’ needs before the needs of individuals. How is that loyalty? How is that different than “being compassionate and aware of everyone’s humanity”? Loyalty becomes a meaningless platitude that doesn’t actually suggest any course of action at any given point.
I work hard to support my family in all areas, and constantly endeavor to become better at doing so. I make more of an effort in this regard for my family than I do others, but I don’t call that difference “loyalty”. If my family member treated someone else wrongly, I would stand up for that other person in the face of my family member. Because justice is important, compassion is important, and I believe my family member will be better off in the long run if their behavior is not given a pass or endorsed just because they’re close to me.
Many people articulate their loyalty with phrases like “I’d help hide the body”. I would not help hide the body (baring extenuating circumstances). If loyalty means helping to hide the body as opposed to pursuing justice, safety, and growth, then loyalty is a social problem, not a commendable trait.
I’m very loyal to family, good friends, people who report directly to me.
I would help hide the body, and if anyone came asking, I’d say I alone hid the body.
In a heartbeat (though it took way after my son was born for me to develop that.) I would also die for my husband.
But I’m not sure how great that is as a measure of love. When I was little my Mom got into a minor car accident with me in the back seat. I saw her intentionally steer her side of the car toward the point of impact. And when I asked her about it, she told me she was trying to ensure if anyone got hurt, it was her and not me.
Very nice.
But her contribution as a whole, as a mother? Arguably very negative.
Reality is complex.
In addition to family and friends, I’m pretty fucking loyal to my place of employment, I think. They’ve earned it, in my opinion. It would take a lot for me to walk away, which is why I’ve been struggling with the idea of taking time off to help my kid. Competing loyalties I guess. But you know who wins.