# Who can best understand Beowulf?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 25, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036 "2007-10-25T21:36:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/1 "2007-10-25T21:36:26Z")
Five guys walk into a literature class. One speaks only English, one speaks only German, one speaks only Dutch, one speaks only Danish, and one speaks only Icelandic.
Inspired by the upcoming movie, and [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=441507), I’m wondering which of the 5 guys could get the most out of reading the earliest extant [Beowulf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf) text. Written down in the 11th century, it would be after the time when Old Norse and Old English were mutually intelligible, but not by all that long compared to where we sit int he 21st century.
I’m going to say, in this order:
Icelandic guy
Dutch guy
German guy
Danish guy
English guy
I base that on the fact that English has changed so radically since that time by the infusion of French words and the loss of many case endings for nouns. But it’s still closer to Dutch and German than it is Danish.
I’m not sure this has a 100% factual answer (except for may the Icelandic guy), but it’s close enough, I think, for this forum.
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### Author:  [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/2 "2007-10-25T22:09:17Z")
It looks more English than Norwegian (which is closer to norse than danish). My vote is that the Icelandic would understand it quite well (they can supposedly read Old Norse easily enough, and according to the other thread, Old English, too), but all of the others would be pretty far off. I don’t see the dutch link at all. So Icelandic - English - Danish - German - Dutch.
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### Author:  [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/3 "2007-10-25T22:10:00Z")
Icelandic is a very static language, so I’m with you.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/4 "2007-10-25T22:13:26Z")
[QUOTE=yelimS]
It looks more English than Norwegian (which is closer to norse than danish). My vote is that the Icelandic would understand it quite well (they can supposedly read Old Norse easily enough, and according to the other thread, Old English, too), but all of the others would be pretty far off. I don’t see the dutch link at all. So Icelandic - English - Danish - German - Dutch.
[/QUOTE]
You don’t see the Dutch or German connection? I have to admit that I cheated a bit in that quiz I took in the other thread-- some of those words I recognized because I speak some German. How do you say “day” and “king” in German?
Plus, there are lots of Germanic words that have fallen out of use in English, but remain in German, Dutch and Scandinavian languages.
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/5 "2007-10-25T22:18:07Z")
Me.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/6 "2007-10-25T22:35:26Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff]
Me.
[/QUOTE]
Are you related to Banf-f?
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/7 "2007-10-25T22:49:02Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Are you related to Banf-f?
[/QUOTE]
I guess not, since I didn’t even understand the question.
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### Author:  [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/8 "2007-10-25T22:50:37Z")
You mean gear **dag** um and þeod **cyninga**? I’d say they’re rather well camouflaged, and I don’t think too many germans would have recognized either of them if it weren’t for the translation.
I’ll try to analyze some words from the excerpt in [Beowulf - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Form)
æfter - could be norwegian etter (efter), english after, which actually could be the “of” in the translation (in norwegian, you can ask after, like in english “to ask for”)
ond - english and is easy enough to spot, at least in way it’s used throughout the text, but norwegian “og” would be far-fetched.
grimhelmas - uhm, grim helmets/ grimme hjelmer? could be a connection (translated as masked helms)
Ic eom - I am, ok. Not too similar to norwegian “Jeg er”, though
Ne seah ic - I have never seen… seems a bit far fetched to spot it, but ok. The litteral norwegian would be “Jeg har aldri sett”, but Ne could look like a negation (No is Nei), seah looks like se (see), ic isn’t too far from jeg (I)
manige men modiglicran - One of the few bits easier to spot for a norwegian. The translation reads Many men, of braver bearing, which is about the same as norwegian “Mange modige menn”
sohton. - sought/søkt. It looks a bit far fetched (or søkt, as we would say)
Him - him/ham
andswarode - looks quite like answered, but in norwegian it easily mistranslates as ansvar (responsibility)
word æfter spræc -word after spoke (in translation: these words thereafter spoke). The relevant norwegian words are ord, etter, sa, but the syntax here is a bit confusing, in both english and norwegian.
heard under helme: “Hard under helm”, I don’t really know what it’s supposed to mean. It easily mistranslates as the same in norwegian and english, heard under helm/ hørt under hjelm. Now, what **that** is supposed to mean, I’ve no clue.
Beowulf is min nama. - Beowulf is my name / Beowulf er mitt (also min, though that would be grammatically wrong) navn. Sounds more english, but intelligible in norwegian.
Wille - Wish/ Vill. Minor point to the norwegian.
min ærende - My mission / mitt ærende. Not a clue as an englishman, simple as a norwegian.
þæt (thæt) wæs - that was / det var. Mostly english.
wisdom - wisdom/visdom
wine - friend/ venn. But it still looks more like wine/vin.
As you may have noticed, I didn’t really look for german or dutch words, but I don’t think I would have found any (I don’t speak either of the languages, but I think it’s fair to say that I’m well aquainted with both)
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/9 "2007-10-25T22:54:56Z")
[QUOTE=yelimS]
As you may have noticed, I didn’t really look for german or dutch words, but I don’t think I would have found any (I don’t speak either of the languages, but I think it’s fair to say that I’m well aquainted with both)
[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind that this is all relative. Who would understand more words, not who would understand all the words. And you might find that the German and Dutch words you don’t see are close cognates of Norwegian/Danish/Swedish.
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### Author:  [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/10 "2007-10-25T23:10:56Z")
I believe I have listed most of the scandinavian cognates in the excerpt, and I can’t see that many of them look german or dutch.
A quick babelfish translation of “after. and. grim. helmets. never. seen. i. am. many. brave. men. sought. him. answered. word. after. spoke. hard. under. helm. is. my. name. will. mission. that. was. wisdom. friend.” gives german
“nachher und grimmige Sturzhelme nie gesehen. i. Am. suchten viele tapfere Männer ihn beantworteten Wort nach Speichezwangsarbeit unter Helm. ist. meine Name Willensmission, die Klugheitfreund war-.”
and dutch
“nooit gezien na en onverbiddelijke helmen. i. am. vele moedige mensen naar hem streefden beantwoordde woord na spoke. hard onder roer. is. mijn opdracht van de naamwil die wijsheidsvriend was.”
I see that some of the words haven’t been translated, and there might be more similar translations for some of the words, but overall both languages looks quite different.
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### Author:  [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/11 "2007-10-26T00:07:44Z")
couple of corrections to my cognate list
min ærende of course translates to my errand in english, which is the same as the norwegian “ærende”. We wouldn’t really use it to mean mission, but we’d rather use, for example, “oppdrag” (which is cognate with dutch opdracht, as babelfish suggested)
andswarode isn’t really too far from the norwegian, either. but it still looks more like “ansvar” (responsibility) than “svar/svarte” (answer/answered)
by the way, what are these five guys doing in _the same_ litterature class? 😕
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/12 "2007-10-26T00:16:53Z")
[QUOTE=yelimS]
by the way, what are these five guys doing in _the same_ litterature class? 😕
[/QUOTE]
It was a not-so-clever take on the jokes that start off: 2 guys walk into a bar. One is a…
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### Author:  [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/13 "2007-10-26T00:53:17Z")
From a German perspective the text is full of recognizable cognates. Unfortunately some are not so obvious and many don’t work as direct translations. Some of the differences from (modern) German are relatively regular. E.g. it helps a lot if I mentally replace every _þ_ with a _d_, _ht_ or _ght_ with _cht_ and _c_ at the end of a word with _ch_. It’s hard to tell exactly how difficult it is. You can understand quite a bit but it requires real effort (and of course knowing some modern English helps.)
[QUOTE=yelimS]
You mean gear **dag** um and þeod **cyninga**? I’d say they’re rather well camouflaged, and I don’t think too many germans would have recognized either of them if it weren’t for the translation.
[/QUOTE]
That’s probably true. At least those Germans who know the etymology of _ **deut** sch_ can make an educated guess what kind of _König_ that is.
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### Author:  [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/14 "2007-10-26T02:26:41Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff]
I guess not, since I didn’t even understand the question.
[/QUOTE]
Banff is the name of a town and National Park in the Canadian Rockies. I lived there prior to moving to Maryland.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/15 "2007-10-26T02:48:26Z")
[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth]
Banff is the name of a town and National Park in the Canadian Rockies. I lived there prior to moving to Maryland.
[/QUOTE]
It’s an old Monty Python routine. The guy would insist on pronouncing the two “Fs”:
Banf-f. It was pretty funny IRL. I was wondering if he was Beowulf-f.
**yelimS** : BTW, even with my limited German, I can pick out quite a few words. And some phrase make more sense in German than English (OE grammar is closer to German than it is to English). Also, Babelfish is notoriously bad for this type of analysis.
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### Author:  [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/16 "2007-10-26T11:11:04Z")
**John Mace:** Of course, just a quick translation while we were waiting for the germans to come along. I’d thought the punctuation would prevent the fish from screwing up too much, but alas.
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/17 "2007-10-26T16:40:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
It’s an old Monty Python routine. The guy would insist on pronouncing the two “Fs”:
Banf-f. It was pretty funny IRL. I was wondering if he was Beowulf-f.
[/QUOTE]
…and I thought I knew them all. I don’t recall this one.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/18 "2007-10-26T17:11:13Z")
[QUOTE=yelimS]
**John Mace:** Of course, just a quick translation while we were waiting for the germans to come along. I’d thought the punctuation would prevent the fish from screwing up too much, but alas.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I’m eager to hear from a native German speaker. Keep in mind that even the English translation is a bit archaic (probably on purpose), and some of those words would not be commonly used today.
Also, the phrase “min ærende” is probably literally translated as “my errand”, but that word has a less powerful meaning than “mission” does today. Errand is usually meant to be a small task you are sent on, like picking up a bottle of milk at the grocery store, but I’m guessing it must derive from “ærende”. The phrase “hard of helm” is awkward in Modern English, to say the least. I’m not sure exactly what that is supposed to mean unless it’s: “They had hard helmets.” Not sure why that would be particularly remarkable, since helmets are supposed to be hard.
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### Author:  [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/19 "2007-10-26T17:39:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
The phrase “hard of helm” is awkward in Modern English, to say the least. I’m not sure exactly what that is supposed to mean unless it’s: “They had hard helmets.” Not sure why that would be particularly remarkable, since helmets are supposed to be hard.
[/QUOTE]
Isn’t it “heard under helme”, i.e., it was a hard man under the helmet. “Hard” is still used in that sense today in English.
(And one of the marks of Old English poetry is the alliteration, so the Beowulf poet wanted two “h” words there for the poetic effect).
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### Author:  [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-best-understand-beowulf/424036/20 "2007-10-26T17:53:26Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
It’s an old Monty Python routine. The guy would insist on pronouncing the two “Fs”:
Banf-f.
[/QUOTE]
I thought it was from F Troop (“the burglar of Banf - f”).
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