# Who can tell me about the Army Psychological Operations Specialists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516 "2007-06-02T21:03:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/21 "2007-06-12T02:30:12Z")
BTW, I was definitely not trying to say anything negative about your buddy. Trust me, it’s not an insult to say someone is not a special forces operator. I also wasnt trying to say that anyone in PSYOPS is automatically a sissy. I was just saying that they certainly aren’t automatically hardcore. Every MOS has it’s place. I just wish everyone would be content with their role and not have to always say things like “we’re just like the infantry” or “we’re pretty much just like Rangers…” It gets old, kinda lame and frustrating. That frustration is apparant in **Just4Life** ’s post. I agree with him completely. It’s like, if a person is a Legal Clerk in a Special Forces Battalion, they’ll say “I’m in Special Forces” and not “I’m a legal clerk”. At least in a Ranger battalion, EVERYONE needs to pass Ranger Indoctrination. Even the cooks have been through RIP. If you were a Legal Clerk in a Ranger battalion, you at least rate the “Ranger” title. Though it would still be wrong for others to assume you’re “pretty much infantry” or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/22 "2007-06-12T16:25:07Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] I was just agreeing with the other poster that a PSYOPs soldier is not “just like a Green Beret” or even close. It’s not even similar. [/QUOTE] That’s fine, but nobody in this thread made anything close to the claim that they were. What was said was: > [@Loach](#): > > I am currently in an MI slot and have worked with people from PSYOPS. Here is the armys site for PSYOPS. If you go into it prepare to get sand in your shoes. They are part of Special Operations and work closely with the Green Berets. > [@pravnik](#): > > It’s no desk job. You’re looking at being a SpecOps combat soldier in wartime, no small thing. Two rather innocuous statements that are completely true on their faces. This led **Lust4Life** to post a long and tragically punctuated rant ending with: > [@Lust4Life](#): > > Airborne ?Special ops?my arse! An argument somewhat undercut but the fact that the 4th PSYOP group is (1) a special operations unit which is (2) airborne. The meat of his post, however, is that PSYOPs is a bunch of knuckleheaded Walter Mitties with harebrained schemes that never, ever work who show up after the real men have done the dirty work to clown around, pose for pictures, play video games, and take credit. This is a position you “completely agree” with? Would you say so to [these guys?](http://news.soc.mil/imagery/USACAPOC/USACAPOC.htm) Would you repeat it to the families of these guys? > [@](#): > > Pfc. George A. Lutz II > Age: 25 > Hometown: Virginia Beach, Va. > Unit: Army’s 9th Psychological Operations Battalion, 4th Psychologial Operations Group, U.S. Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command, Fort Bragg, N.C. > Circumstances: Died Dec. 29 in Fallujah, Iraq, when his dismounted patrol was attacked by enemy forces using small-arms fire. > **[Client Challenge](https://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/iraq/casualties/032503dnintiraqcasualties2005december.40f5c233.html)** > [@](#): > > Army Spc. Jonathan J. Santos, 22, of Whatcom, Washington. > Santos died in Karabilah, Iraq, when a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device detonated near his vehicle. He was assigned to the 9th Psychological Operations Battalion, 4th Psychological Operations Group (Airborne), Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Died on October 15, 2004. > **[Fallen Heroes Memorial: Army Spc. Jonathan J. Santos](https://www.fallenheroesmemorial.com/oif/profiles/santosjonathanj.html)** > > Profile page of Army Spc. Jonathan J. Santos, who died in Operation Iraqi Freedom, including photos and visitor-submitted messages. > [@](#): > > FORT BRAGG, N.C. (USASOC News Service, May 31, 2004) — Three U.S. Army Special Operations Command Soldiers were killed in southern Afghanistan May 29 when their vehicle hit an improvised explosive device there. > > Capt. Daniel W. Eggers, Sgt. 1st Class Robert J. Mogensen and Spc. Joseph A. Jeffries were fatally wounded while returning to their base of operations near Kandahar when the IED detonated as they tried to avoid another explosive device in the road. > > Eggers, 28, a Special Forces detachment commander, and Mogensen, 26, a Special Forces weapons sergeant, were both assigned to 1st Battalion, 3rd Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Fort Bragg, N.C. Jeffries, 21, was a psychological operations specialist assigned to the 320th Psychological Operations Company, an Army Reserve unit based in Portland, Ore. [http://news.soc.mil/advisories/Press-Media%20Releases/2004/040531-01.htm](http://news.soc.mil/advisories/Press-Media%20Releases/2004/040531-01.htm) > [@](#): > > Sgt. Thomas E. Vandling Jr., 26, of Pittsburgh, Pa., died Jan. 1 in Baghdad, Iraq, of wounds suffered when an improvised explosive device detonated near his vehicle while on combat patrol. Vandling was assigned to the 303rd Psychological Operations Company, Oakdale, Pa., a subordinate unit of the U.S. Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command (Airborne), Fort Bragg, N.C. [http://www.defenselink.mil/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=10351](http://www.defenselink.mil/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=10351) ---
**Author:** ![MN\_Maenad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MN\_Maenad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MN_Maenad)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/23 "2007-06-12T19:18:23Z")
Others have said it better already, but I’d like to reiterate that psyops is not a desk job. A good friend of mine spent his time there and went to Sarajevo during that little dust-up. He wasn’t on the front lines, but it was hardly a safe position either. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/24 "2007-06-12T20:15:09Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] That’s fine, but nobody in this thread made anything close to the claim that they were. What was said was: Two rather innocuous statements that are completely true on their faces. [/quote] What you said is not true. Even the face of it. What **YOU** said was: “You’re looking at being a SpecOps combat soldier in wartime, no small thing.” PSYOPS is _not_ combat arms. Therefore, by definition, a psyops specialist is not a “SpecOps Combat Soldier” or anything close. My point, was that many non-combat types (not necessarily your friend) like to feed off the ignorance of others and justify just how damn hooah they are by saying shit exactly like that. They’ll say “Oh… well I’m a Tactical Special Operations Combat Leaflet Dispensor”. > [@](#): > > The meat of his post, however, is that PSYOPs is a bunch of knuckleheaded Walter Mitties with harebrained schemes that never, ever work who show up after the real men have done the dirty work to clown around, pose for pictures, play video games, and take credit. This is a position you “completely agree” with? Funny that I haven’t seen you attack the person who actually said it. Would you feel better if I said I _somewhat_ agree with it? Fine. Allow me to retract my statement. I’ll say that I “pretty much agree” with what he’s saying. > [@](#): > > Would you repeat it to the families of these guys? > [http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/iraq/casualties/032503dnintiraqcasualties2005december.40f5c233.html](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/iraq/casualties/032503dnintiraqcasualties2005december.40f5c233.html) > [Fallen Heroes Memorial: Army Spc. Jonathan J. Santos](http://www.fallenheroesmemorial.com/oif/profiles/santosjonathanj.html) > [http://news.soc.mil/advisories/Press-Media%20Releases/2004/040531-01.htm](http://news.soc.mil/advisories/Press-Media%20Releases/2004/040531-01.htm) > [http://www.defenselink.mil/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=10351](http://www.defenselink.mil/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=10351) What exactly is your point? That soldiers of any MOS can _die_? Yea, it takes a really hardcore soldier to die. :rolleyes: Your appeal to emotion is a piss poor argument indeed. Cooks can get attacked during convoys. Computer Networking Specialists can get mortared just like anyone else. But that doesn’t mean that a computer network guy with 3rd Bn, 1st Special Forces was a hard core SpecOps combat soldier just because he died in Iraq or because he was assigned to an SF battalion. Geez. That’s a far stretch to even suggest that I would go to a family member of a dead soldier and say their son or daughter is a sissy because he/she is not combat arms. Fuck you for even suggesting that I would. They enlisted and served their country. The real pussies are back at home with only a guess as to what true bravery is. Would I say it to their families? Of course not. I wouldn’t say it to their families even if they didn’t die. Would I say it to _them_ personally? Well fucking of course I would. And they’d probably counter with something about my IQ or GT Score or some shit. (Which just ends up helping me, since my GT is 144) Among soldiers, if I’m in some class where there is Infantry and soft-skill MOS soldiers… of course I’d say shit to them. And then they’d call us stupid and say that Infantry is just all the idiots who couldn’t get any other job in the Army… etc etc.. That’s how it works. Everybody gives each other shit. Everyone’s job is the best in the Army, and everyone _else’s_ job fails in comparison. Why you took such a comment so fucking personally because you “know a guy” is beyond me. Maybe you’re right. Maybe being a civilian, you just can’t “really say [your]self” ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/25 "2007-06-12T21:44:18Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > What you said is not true. Even the face of it. > What YOU said was: > “You’re looking at being a SpecOps combat soldier in wartime, no small thing.” Okay, I’ll rephrase to “soldier in a war zone.” My point was that the OP might not end up safe behind a desk, and will likely have to do things most people don’t do, like carry a rifle and jump out of airplanes. [QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] Funny that I haven’t seen you attack the person who actually said it. Would you feel better if I said I _somewhat_ agree with it? Fine. Allow me to retract my statement. I’ll say that I “pretty much agree” withwhat he’s saying. [/QUOTE] Well, I’ll admit I overreacted and retract my statement as well. The guy is someone I respect a great deal as a martial artist, so the comment got under my skin a little bit. The only reason I’m responding to you is because I respect your opinion, and admittedly it stuck in my craw this go around. I’m willing to concede and bury the hatchet if you are. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/26 "2007-06-12T22:06:15Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] Okay, I’ll rephrase to “soldier in a war zone.” My point was that the OP might not end up safe behind a desk, and will likely have to do things most people don’t do, like carry a rifle and jump out of airplanes. [/quote] And that point I can completely agree on as well. > [@](#): > > Well, I’ll admit I overreacted and retract my statement as well. The guy is someone I respect a great deal as a martial artist, so the comment got under my skin a little bit. Quite frankly, I dont doubt he’s a badass. He could probably whoop my ass in the octogon, and he’s obviously been stabbed more than I have. But if I knew him, and I made a list of all the reasons I think he’s so hardcore, being in Psyops would be at the bottom (if it was on there at all) 😉 > [@](#): > > The only reason I’m responding to you is because I respect your opinion, and admittedly it stuck in my craw this go around. I’m willing to concede and bury the hatchet if you are. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/27 "2007-06-12T22:07:27Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] That’s a far stretch to even suggest that I would go to a family member of a dead soldier and say their son or daughter is a sissy because he/she is not combat arms. Fuck you for even suggesting that I would. [/QUOTE] You know what? You’re right. I was pissed off and attempting to make a point rather than suggesting that you would literally do such a thing, but that was still over the line. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/28 "2007-06-12T22:11:31Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] Quite frankly, I dont doubt he’s a badass. He could probably whoop my ass in the octogon, and he’s obviously been stabbed more than I have. But if I knew him, and I made a list of all the reasons I think he’s so hardcore, being in Psyops would be at the bottom (if it was on there at all) [/QUOTE] Agreed, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. Said stabbings occurred not in the service of his country, but in the service of the bar he was bouncing at. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JoeSki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b487fb/32.png) [@JoeSki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeSki)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516/29 "2007-06-19T22:57:36Z")
_ahem_ Well, this post is a bit old now, but I decided to crawl out from my cave of never ending homework and exam studies, from which I will soon return, for a quick recap of what I’ve learned in regards to this here argument. Based on what I’ve gathered from my conversations with the gentleman at the other board, PSYOPS may be the brain\* rather than the hand that rips an enemy’s still beating heart out of their chest, but they are both part of the same body and travel together. As such, a member of PSYOPS can be exposed to many of the same risks as the men doing the actual shooting. A PSYOP soldier must be in excellent shape, and be physically able to tread the same ground, or fall in the same air, as a Green Beret. It’s a PSYOP Specialist’s job to prevent the need for a fight, to alter the enemy’s train of thought, to manipulate, and sedate. If they don’t succeed…well, it’s time for the other guys. So you’ll have your green berets and PSYOP guys working side by side many times since results are always more likely to happen when action immeditely follows a warning. PSYOPs is not all leaflets and radio programs, a lot of it does involve rather cozy contact with enemies. Now, this is all feild work. There is another aspect of it that largely does takes place behind a desk, and is more geared towards mass influence. It’s not all graphic design and knocking on arabs tents to ask them if you can step in for a moment to tell them about the wonderful US of A. There are hardships and great stress that come with the gig. Nor is it the Green Berets, Marines, or Navy Seals. They have their own brand of stress and their own training to deal with it. I’ll report back with more later if I get permission to post our Q&A session. \*This isn’t really a functioning metaphor since PSYOPs isn’t about how to go about killing. No need to correct me on this note. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-can-tell-me-about-the-army-psychological-operations-specialists/406516.md?page=1)