# Who carries the most blame in these three scenarios of sexual conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684 "2010-12-19T04:20:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/61 "2010-12-19T17:58:14Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > All of these situations could have been potentially “compromising.” You could argue that her friend saw her asking him to driver her home as a come on, or she could have been raped by the taxi driver, or her other friend could have saw that as an invitation, etc. Getting a nearby hotel room with a trusted friend who agreed on some ground rules seems like one of the safest of these options. I agree. I don’t see how any of those alternatives would steer away from Acid Lamp’s conclusion that the woman placed herself in a compromising situation. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/62 "2010-12-19T18:03:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Jake is an abuser\* with a horrible wife. Again, I think the conversation between Jake and Suji is the key to figuring out who’s really to blame for the slapping. If, after being confronted, Suji told him that she’s taking command of her sexuality and he doesn’t love her enough and all that other “[woman are allowed to have affairs](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUnfairSex)” Hollywood bullshit then it was probably deserved. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/63 "2010-12-19T18:09:19Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Again, I think the conversation between Jake and Suji is the key to figuring out who’s really to blame for the slapping. If, after being confronted, Suji told him that she’s taking command of her sexuality and he doesn’t love her enough and all that other “[woman are allowed to have affairs](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUnfairSex)” Hollywood bullshit then it was probably deserved. No. It wasn’t. Nor would it be deserved if the situations were reversed. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/64 "2010-12-19T19:14:55Z")
> [@Amasia](#): > > I agree. I don’t see how any of those alternatives would steer away from Acid Lamp’s conclusion that the woman placed herself in a compromising situation. The expected outcome of a taxi ride is arriving at your destination. Being raped by the taxi driver is so completely out of the norm that you can’t possibly say someone placed themself at risk in that situation. Whereas deciding to stay in a hotel with a friend while drunk can quite easily lead to sex. It doesn’t take any stretch of the imagination at all. Any alternative would be less likely to lead to a sexual situation. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/65 "2010-12-19T19:18:54Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > Whereas deciding to stay in a hotel with a friend while drunk can quite easily lead to sex. It doesn’t take any stretch of the imagination at all. It really does for me. If you’re my friend, I am not thinking about having sex with you. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/66 "2010-12-19T19:24:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It really does for me. If you’re my friend, I am not thinking about having sex with you. The same for me. It seems like some sort of major gap- cultural or generational- I’m not sure which, where staying in a hotel room implies “possibly sex” with someone you are not already engaging in sexual behavior with. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/67 "2010-12-19T19:26:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It really does for me. If you’re my friend, I am not thinking about having sex with you. Because, at the risk of being wildly sexist, you are a woman. I’ve been friends with plenty of girls with whom I would have had sex given the opportunity. This does not suggest that I would have behaved anything like Taehoon in this example. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/68 "2010-12-19T19:31:17Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > The expected outcome of a taxi ride is arriving at your destination. Being raped by the taxi driver is so completely out of the norm that you can’t possibly say someone placed themself at risk in that situation. > > Whereas deciding to stay in a hotel with a friend while drunk can quite easily lead to sex. It doesn’t take any stretch of the imagination at all. > > Any alternative would be less likely to lead to a sexual situation. You are correct that a cab ride would be less risky if she were aware there were any risk. Not knowing of a potential risk, it makes way more sense to stay with a friend, who you trust, as opposed to a stranger (taxi driver) who you know nothing about. The other two scenarios (asking another friend for a ride and staying at a friends house) still involve trusting a friend and are no different than staying in the hotel room. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/69 "2010-12-19T19:45:23Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > Because, at the risk of being wildly sexist, you are a woman. > > I’ve been friends with plenty of girls with whom I would have had sex given the opportunity. This does not suggest that I would have behaved anything like Taehoon in this example. Unless I’m confused, so is Hyemin. So you seem to be saying that it’s no stretch of _your_ imagination, but it might be of _hers_, which is why she should have known it was likely. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![prettydorky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@prettydorky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prettydorky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/70 "2010-12-19T20:13:47Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > Situation 1: Hyemin is at a dinner party with her schoolmates. Are these high school or college schoolmates? How old is Hyemin? I think any person can be expected to have a quick little powwow with themselves before drinking. Many people are saying Hyemin merely sought help from a trusted friend, and should have been able to do so. I agree, but I think she put herself into the position of needing help. What someone does or does not do to a friend who needs help is a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/71 "2010-12-19T21:35:38Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > How is “crashing at a friend’s house” _less_ dangerous than going to a hotel? We’ve already established that the friend is an untrustworthy creep. It’s not her responsibility for psychically guessing he was going to try to pressure her into sex. I was referring to the friend that was hosting the party, not Taehoon. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/72 "2010-12-19T21:43:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > All of these situations could have been potentially “compromising.” You could argue that her friend saw her asking him to driver her home as a come on, or she could have been raped by the taxi driver, or her other friend could have saw that as an invitation, etc. Getting a nearby hotel room with a trusted friend who agreed on some ground rules seems like one of the safest of these options. > > I think the only situation where people won’t blame a woman for unwanted sexual contact (remember, she made it clear she wasn’t interested in sex and he agreed) is to sit at home, sober, with the doors locked and windows drawn. Anything short of that can apparently be construed as a come-on. From the OP > [@](#): > > Hyemin tells Taehoon that she is tired and too drunk, so she wants to go home. Taehoon offers to bring her to a nearby motel.\*\* Hyemin is worried at first\*\*, but Taehoon promises that he will be the perfect gentleman—besides, he says, he is like her older brother. Hyemin goes to the motel with Taehoon Bolding mine Without any more, it seems that Hyemin is nervous about sharing a room with her fried, even through her drunken haze. The fact that she allows herself to be persuaded, rather than standing firm implies some responsibility. I do not equate responsibility with intent or invitation. When you choose the indulge in substances that alter your perceptions to make rational choices, you accept some risk and responsibility for what may result. No is blaming her for HIS actions. Taehoon is a lout, and bears the entirety of the blame for his behaviour. She is only partially to blame for the _circumstances_. Had she been firm about going home, taking another option, or simply restraining herself from becoming drunk, she likely would have made different choices to avoid an uncomfortable situation. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/73 "2010-12-20T09:42:45Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I was referring to the friend that was hosting the party, not Taehoon. How does she know the friend won’t try to pressure her into sex? Taehoon was a “friend”, too. How can she tell which of her friends is going to try to coerce her into sleeping with them? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/74 "2010-12-20T13:57:09Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > How does she know the friend won’t try to pressure her into sex? Taehoon was a “friend”, too. How can she tell which of her friends is going to try to coerce her into sleeping with them? That’s irrelevant. You could make up a scenario for anything that ends the same way. Perhaps martians invaded the party and wanted some Earth-girl lovin. If only she had gone with her friend instead! I’m going with the information provided by the OP. She gets drunk and wants to go home. He suggests a hotel,\*\*\* she is nervous about that\*\*\*. She allows herself to be talked into it. That implies that Hyemin either knew that Taehoon had feelings for her, or was simply uncomfortable with the idea of sharing a room with him for some reason _even while inebriated._ That alone is enough for me to apportion a small amount of responsibility to her. She made the choice to get drunk, she likewise made the choice to go along with Taehoon to the hotel despite her reservations. I don’t blame the victim; Taehoon likewise made his own choices to try and take advantage of his friend. However, had she chosen to go easier on the booze or remained firmer in her decision to go home the situation would never had arisen. So she bears some small amount of responsibility for the situation, not Taehoon’s actions. People don’t have some implicit right to act in a irresponsible manner and bear no onus of responsibility for the resulting situations or consequences of them. Regardless of gender, if we want to be treated as adults then we must face up to the results of our choices. That is why we make a \*legal \*distinction when dealing with this type of thing. It is the responsibility of the assaulter alone because he or she made their own choice to act in an unacceptable manner. To otherwise would be truly BE blaming the victim, which is something we do not need to return to. Ethically, and personally though, someone who knowingly places themselves in compromising and dangerous situations should learn from their mistakes and shoulder some personal responsibility for their poor choices. NOT for being assaulted, mugged, whatever; but for allowing themselves to make poor decisions. If I know that walking home at night from the pub takes me through a bad part of town, I call a cab. If I walk and get mugged, it is the muggers fault for stealing from me, it is partly my fault for deciding to walk home in a rough part of town drunk. I could have avoided that. The key thing is having that knowledge ahead of time. If our OP’s situation, they imply that Hyemin does indeed have some reservations about going anywhere but home with Taehoon. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/75 "2010-12-20T14:04:51Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > If my doctor told me that, I could do enough mental kungfu not to kungfu the doctor. Using your example, why do more people hit women who have slept around than doctors who give terminal news? Because the doctor didn’t make you terminal. In the scenario presented, she is directly responsible for the pain he feels. [Dr. Manhatten] Without condoning, or condemning, I understand. [/Dr. Manhatten] ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/76 "2010-12-20T14:46:55Z")
Of course it is Taehoon’s _fault_. But I cannot just take \* responsibility\* away from Hyemin, either. I’ve seen this a lot in these threads, and I agree, us women should be able to get drunk around whomever we want, and whenever we want. Wouldn’t that be lovely, if we didn’t need to worry? Unfortunately the world isn’t that nice. You can’t avoid every bad thing that happens in your life…but you can try the best you can. And Hyemin should not have gone to the hotel, drunk, with this so-called friend. The second guy is also totally an asshole and a rapist. As for the third guy, hmm. I can’t really hold one slap against him, to be honest, if it’s in anger. If it was a guy hitting a guy, or, as has been said, a girl hitting a guy, no one would think twice about it. I think it was a shitty thing to do, but when anger builds up like that, I can’t say what people would do, and not everyone has a perfectly Zen attitude. What would be more telling is how he reacted after the initial slap. He should apologize for hitting her - and then tell her to get the hell out of his house. I am not assigning percentages to any of these, that’s just foolish. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/77 "2010-12-20T23:57:55Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’ve seen this a lot in these threads, and I agree, us women should be able to get drunk around whomever we want, and whenever we want. Wouldn’t that be lovely, if we didn’t need to worry? Unfortunately the world isn’t that nice. This is not ‘getting drunk with whomever you want, whenever you want.’ She was drinking with a trusted long-time friend who had agreed explicitly to respect established sexual bounderies. She even went through the effort to make sure those bounderies were clear, and he agreed to them. She didn’t do a thing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/78 "2010-12-21T05:23:05Z")
I’m going to answer from a Muslim perspective… 1. Hyemin -100% for going to a motel with a man who is not related to her. 2. Susanna - 100% for refusing sex to her husband. 3. Suji - 100% for being an obvious whore. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/79 "2010-12-21T05:25:30Z")
You forgot to mention the required honor killings. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684/80 "2010-12-21T06:54:40Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > As for the third guy, hmm. I can’t really hold one slap against him, to be honest, if it’s in anger. If it was a guy hitting a guy, or, as has been said, a girl hitting a guy, no one would think twice about it. I think it was a shitty thing to do, but when anger builds up like that, I can’t say what people would do, and not everyone has a perfectly Zen attitude. > > What would be more telling is how he reacted after the initial slap. He should apologize for hitting her - and then tell her to get the hell out of his house. Finally a voice of reason. I was flabbergasted by other responses. A “slap” is an open-handed blow which stings for a few minutes but leaves no injury. Infidelity can inflict extremely painful emotional suffering, and is likely to destroy what, in the anecdote, seemed to be a very serious, if “common-law”, marriage. (As I said, we’d need to know what the monogamy agreement was in that relationship.) Maybe this is a cultural or generational thing and **septimus** is old-fashioned. I read in threads here that many SDMB’ers participate in orgies. I note that by 2007, 40% of America’s babies were born out-of-wedlock (that’s _all_ babies, not those of a particular class or race). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-carries-the-most-blame-in-these-three-scenarios-of-sexual-conflict/564684.md?page=5)