# Who climbed... and who didn't? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 23, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455 "2005-02-23T01:43:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/21 "2005-02-23T15:56:53Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Buzz Aldrin and Sir Edmund will be along shortly to kick your ass. 😃 Cha! _As if!_ When did Buzz Aldrin ever hit anyone? [Oh, wait…](http://buzz-aldrin.biography.ms/) ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/22 "2005-02-23T16:42:17Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > IIRC correctly in the 80s there was the case of a Polish (I think) climber who claimed a remarkable solo ascent but didn’t take any photos - there was a lot of doubt as to the veracity of his claim and the general feeling amongst climbers was that he was stupid not to have taken a camera. (It could have had something to do with the ‘race’ with the Italian Reinhold Messner to climb all 8000m peaks.) Tomo Cesen, who’s Slovenian. The controversy (IIRC) was about an ascent of Jannu, which is \<8000m. There may be other disputed ascents by Cesen, though I cannot recall 'em off the top of my noggin. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/23 "2005-02-23T19:01:19Z")
Very impressive **Boldface Type** very impressive! That’s\* exactly\* the guy I was thinking of, wow Tomo Cesen, I really am impressed - but will stop gushing now. I remember thinking at the time that it was more than a bit unfair for all the ‘western’ climbers to be snooty about the fact he hadn’t taken a camera when he was doing his thing on a tight budget coming from what was then the Eastern block. There was an inetrview with him in “High” (a British montaineering magazine) which contrasted his training - doing pull ups in the stairwell of the tower block where he lived - while his contemporaries were building their own climbing walls and winning lucrative sponsorship deals. What is the general consenus, if there is one, now do you know ? Did he or didn’t he ? ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/24 "2005-02-23T22:14:01Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > Very impressive **Boldface Type** very impressive! That’s\* exactly\* the guy I was thinking of, wow Tomo Cesen, I really am impressed - but will stop gushing now. Ah, but perhaps I am Tomo Cesen… > [@](#): > > Eastern block. There was an inetrview with him in “High” (a British montaineering magazine) which contrasted his training - doing pull ups in the stairwell of the tower block where he lived - while his contemporaries were building their own climbing walls and winning lucrative sponsorship deals. > > What is the general consenus, if there is one, now do you know ? Did he or didn’t he ? I believe the consensus was (is?) to not accept his ascent. I think a bunch of Russians grabbed the accepted first ascent, but I cannot recall if they actually took the same line as Cesen. On thinking about it, I do recall some more controversy surrounding Cesen. A quick google reveals he also has a disputed ascent of Lhotse (1990). ISTR this was discussed in High (and other mags), and I think the discussion centered around photos he took that did not seem to match up with the story of his ascent. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/25 "2005-02-23T22:19:34Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Even the Treasury Dept. and Congress were in on the Civil War hoax since millions of dollars in soldiers and widows pensions were paid out. I actually saw one of the checks. So you say. I’ll bet it was written with a font type that wasn’t available in 1865 or whenever they say the war occured… Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/26 "2005-02-24T12:20:32Z")
Well \*\*Boldface Type \*\* what a dark horse - maybe we could scale new heights together 😉 PS Maybe I’m Isabelle Patissier 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/27 "2005-02-24T12:28:26Z")
[hijack] Excuse me **Cat Jones** , sorry to break up your party, but we are supposed to be getting married this June remember? Anything I shouild know about? 🙂 [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/28 "2005-02-24T12:44:01Z")
It’s a lot easier to fake things nowadays with all this new technology, but what about back in 1960.Could you fake a trip to bottom of the ocean for instance … say, Mariana’s Trench? ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/29 "2005-02-24T14:34:12Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > I think the search goes on for Mallory’s kodak camera in the hope that it may contain more clues - ie were he and Irving still on the way up or the way down after a successful summit bid when they fell ? The talk I’ve heard among several noted Himalayan climbers–my brother is a prominent alpinist–is that if that camera survived Mallory’s 1924 expedition, it’s possible that the first Chinese team on Everest in the 1960s disposed of it. Lots of unsunstantiated ifs there, but factions within the climbing community strongly believe that the Chinese stumbled across the body of Mallory’s partner, Irvine, during an epic climb in the 1960s. (A member of the Chinese team admitted as much about this encounter to a Japanese climber during that 1960s ascent, but perished in a fall the next day.) Anyway, it was long said, long before the Chinese ascent, that the only proof of Mallory’s possible first ascent would be preserved in that Kodak camera. The Chinese, of course, were hell-bent on a northern-route first ascent–40 years later. (Read some of the accounts and the obsessiveness verges on the spooky.) The theory speculates that if the Chinese did indeed find Invine’s body–which to this day has never been relocated–they also may have found the camera tucked inside his clothes or backpack, or located nearby. If so, there would be no chance that any photographs miraculously gleaned from it–Kodak scientists thought such photographic recovery possible–would ever see the light of day, as it would steal China’s glorious proletariat thunder. And that’s the rest of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/30 "2005-02-24T16:12:43Z")
> [@Ponster](#): > > [hijack] > > Excuse me **Cat Jones** , sorry to break up your party, but we are supposed to be getting married this June remember? > > Anything I shouild know about? 🙂 > > [/hijack] [hijack right back at ya] About time I made this a bit more public I guess, I love **Ponster** :wally [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/31 "2005-02-24T16:25:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The talk I’ve heard among several noted Himalayan climbers–my brother is a prominent alpinist–is that if that camera survived Mallory’s 1924 expedition, it’s possible that the first Chinese team on Everest in the 1960s disposed of it. Speechless ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/32 "2005-02-24T18:27:17Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > Speechless ☹ Remember: it’s their **guess** , albeit informed best guess. The first two Chinese ascents were authorized, directed and financed by the Chinese government–and we are talking “Red China” during that time period. From the outset, the climb had huge propaganda value, being much more important to the Chinese government than were the early climbs to the Brits. (Hillary was a kiwi, of course, and Tenzing a Sherpa.) The Chinese climbers had the Communist Party’s pride and reputation riding on their backs. Many Himalyan alpinists today believe that the climbing team’s marching orders were to (a) make the first northern summit and (b) return home with any strange, old-looking, circa 1920s Kodak camera they might find. The Chinese climber I mentioned above apparently got close enough to Irvine that he could easily identify him. If he got that close (near high camp), so did others. After his mentioning of this sighting to the Japanese climber and his subsequent death, the Chinese never owned up to the sighting. My brother would know more about this, but he’s climbing in Asia. That said, there may not be anything else on this, just sneaking suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/33 "2005-02-24T18:45:03Z")
> [@Vetch](#): > > It’s a lot easier to fake things nowadays with all this new technology, but what about back in 1960.Could you fake a trip to bottom of the ocean for instance … say, Mariana’s Trench? Only for 20 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/34 "2005-02-24T18:58:35Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > Well \*\*Boldface Type \*\* what a dark horse - maybe we could scale new heights together Plumb the depths, more like. > [@](#): > > PS Maybe I’m Isabelle Patissier 😛 Ah, how many rock-geeks did repetitive grip training over her, I wonder, back in the early 90s…? I’m sure there’s a joke about jugs in there, too. Anyway, she’s probably an arthritis-laden, 250lb couch potato, these days. (Actually, she’s a rally driver, bizarrely enough. I think she’s slated to develop the new sport of rally-bouldering … ‘and the Subaru is desparately scrabbling for grip on that tiny sloper…’). ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/35 "2005-02-24T19:05:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Carnac the Magnificent!** > > That said, there may not be anything else on this, just sneaking suspicions. Mmm but smoke and fire and all that. The thought made me sad is all, I’ve just finished reading Touching My Father’s Soul by Jamling Tenzing Norgay (he summitted in _that_ '96 season) and it really is sad how much profiteering and cynycism there can be. (This isn’t in _any_ way an attack on your bro BTW - I just like to think the world is warm and fluffy. ) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/36 "2005-02-24T23:00:09Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > So you say. I’ll bet it was written with a font type that wasn’t available in 1865 or whenever they say the war occured… > > Zev Steinhardt Well, I was easily fooled being only about 10 years old at the time (ca 1932). It was to my great grandmother who as a widow of one of those supposed Union Civil War Vets. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/37 "2005-02-25T01:54:07Z")
I believe a Boy Scout troop was prohibited from making an assault on Mt Everest because of Tibet’s strict policy against “ **Youth In Asia** ”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/38 "2005-02-25T05:55:38Z")
Interesting stuff in this thread amidst all of the hijacks. Back to the OP and some related stuff… As far as Everest is concerned, documentation of ascents is pretty thorough. In one of my books (alas, back in NZ) I have the complete list of ascents up to the end of 2000. The lists also record unsuccessful attempt, deaths above Base Camp, ascents without oxygen and female ascents. The first ascent of each of the fifteen major routes is fully documented with photographs and full details of the expedition. In 2000, somethng like 1500 ascents had been done. Two climbers had done 10 ascents. One day had 90 summiters. Figures now are higher. At the end of 2003, 162 people had died above base camp. The speed record is something like 10 hours 45 mins from Base Camp to summit. With all of this interest and accurate record keeping, not to mention humongous fees for each attempt, it would be difficult in today’s world to fake an ascent. As far as I recall, there are only two ascents on the list that are widely disputed. One was Mick Burke who was last seen just below the summit in 1975. There is evidence that he dropped through a cornice and fell down the Kangshung face on his way down. But no one actually saw him on the top. For many years the Chinese ascent of the North Face was disputed. However, the tripod they left at the top was seen to be pretty conclusive evidence that they got there. Any remaining disputes were quashed when image analysis was done on some of their photos. Snow conditions were quite heavy, which made locations difficult to recognise. But a few exposed rocks in some of their video footage gave definite proof of their location. Another disputed climb was a waman whose name escapes me just at present. She both pioneered a new route and did the first traverse – up one route, down another. Her claims to the top are now officially acknowledged. A summary of Mallory and Irvine for those interested. As for Mallory and Irvine… arguments go both ways, and without recovering the camera it is probable that we will never know. I am one of the few who believe that they probably made it. But it is academic given that they did not make it back down. First ascent credits are just not given for unsuccessful descents. As mentioned before, Irvine was seen in a sitting position by a member of a Chinese expedition in the 1960s. Evidently his body was well preserved, but goraks had pecked a hole in his cheek. The witness, (Wang??) perished the following day and the body has not been seen since. It is likely that it was knocked further down the mountain. Mallory’s body was found in 1999. He did not have the camera, which suggests that Irvine probably did have it. A snapped rope was around his waist, indicating that the two were roped together when he fell. He had a compound fracture to his leg and a perforated skull – probably a sizable fall. He was not wearing his goggles which indicates that the fall happened after dark. There was no oxygen equipment with the body, indicating that they had run out. Notes on his body and at camp indicate fairly conclusively that they set off with three O2 cylinders each: possibly enough to summit, but certainly not enough to descend on. Odell saw them climing with “considerable alacrity” on a rock step on the ridge and appear in front of a snow slope at (IIRC) 11:30 in the morning. There are three steps on the North East ridge that could conceivably fit that description. Irvine’s axe and an oxygen cylinder were found just below the first step. Mallory’s body was down the face in a position between the first and second steps. Evidently they got past the first step. However, the first step does not fit well with Odell’s description – it does not have a snow field behind when viewed from the angle that Odel would have seen it. As for the second step, it it is a widely held view that it would have just been too technical and difficult for Mallory and Irvine to have climbed with the techniques and equipment available to them. On the other hand, the third step fits with Odell’s description best. If indeed Mallory and Irvine were at that position at the time that Odell made his observation, then they could conceivably have hit the top around 2:00pm, probably running out of oxygen just before the summit. Under those circumstances they would have been caught out by nightfall on the way down and, suffering hypoxia, could easily have fallen. Mallory left his head-torch back at the tent. Again, if they had passed the third step that early in the day, it is unlikely that either would have felt compelled to turn around with the summit so close. So, if Odell’s observation is taken to be authentic, and if it is identified with the third step, then the other evidence is consistent with them summitting. The big questions surround the reliability and interpretation of what Odell said he saw, as well as the difficulty of mounting the second step. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/39 "2005-02-25T14:14:56Z")
> [@j\_sum1](#): > > So, if Odell’s observation is taken to be authentic, and if it is identified with the third step, then the other evidence is consistent with them summitting. The big questions surround the reliability and interpretation of what Odell said he saw, as well as the difficulty of mounting the second step. You just reminded me of something my brother talked about. He said that if Everest had been bombarded by deep snows that year, Mallory and Irvine speculated ascent of the second or third step would have been considerably eased–almost like walking up a ramp, if the snow was consolidated enough. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455/40 "2005-02-26T00:12:15Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > You just reminded me of something my brother talked about. He said that if Everest had been bombarded by deep snows that year, Mallory and Irvine speculated ascent of the second or third step would have been considerably eased–almost like walking up a ramp, if the snow was consolidated enough. Lotta snow needed. The second step is often described as being like the front end of a battleship. It’s pretty exposed and there isn’t a whole lot of room for snow build up. Third step is pretty much a walk. Ok, not quite, but it is not technical. Snow conditions were uncharactersitically light both in 1924 when Mallory died and in 1999 when he was found. The situation your brother described has happened at the Hillary step on the other side. This is the biggest hurdle on that route ane just a short distance below the summit. Hillary climbed it by squeezing himself between the rock and the snow, which had partially fallen away from the face. Unorthodox, and not particularly safe. For most climbers the H step is a rock climb at extreme altitude. Granted that most just pull themselves up the ropes that are placed there by guides each season. There is however a photo of one year when the Hillary step was completely snow covered and the climbers on it were just wading up through deep snow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-climbed-and-who-didnt/291455.md?page=1)