# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/1 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")
I am sure I am not the first to ask this question, but I am curious as to what is a typical Randian response. Of course it is not just the trash, but all the menial work that allows the so-called producers the luxury and free time to “produce”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/2 "2014-02-18T00:01:31Z")
Are you asking if it was in the book, or for us to extrapolate from the story? Assuming the latter, I’d say it would depend on who thought they could make money at garbage collection or thought it was something they could do and do well (and in the real world, a lot of folks seem to have made quite a large amount of money collecting the garbage…and making, repairing and maintaining icky things like sewers). Considering that there were folks in the story who were doing menial labor in various tasks…and liking it in the story…I don’t really know what the OP is looking for. The story doesn’t go into great detail, focusing more on the main characters, but if Galt was willing to be a track laborer then I don’t think that garbage collection would be beneath anyone. Not everyone was rich or destined to be rich, and that wasn’t the point of the story. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/3 "2014-02-18T00:14:31Z")
I’ve heard this argument in a similar context several times and never particularly understood it. One other context was in a cyberpunk dystopian setting, where several characters commented that corporations could take over, but didn’t want to pick up the trash. Whereas, ironically, they did do various services that corporations don’t like to do - such as police or fire service. Trash collection is just a task, and it doesn’t much matter in the end who does it as long as it gets done a reasonable cost. I wouldn’t say it’s particularly a government responsibility. It’s not like police where individual trash collectors are officially endowed with some greater civic authority and/or duty. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/4 "2014-02-18T00:22:03Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I am sure I am not the first to ask this question, but I am curious as to what is a typical Randian response. Of course it is not just the trash, but all the menial work that allows the so-called producers the luxury and free time to “produce”. You’re assuming the population of Galt’s Gulch is nothing **but** Atlases. I haven’t read the book, but based on discussions of it in this forum, I don’t believe that was the case. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/5 "2014-02-18T00:29:31Z")
If anyone does it it would be because he wanted to–not because he was unable to do something more intelligent or because he needed to. Which is the idea of the happy idiot. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/6 "2014-02-18T00:35:55Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > If anyone does it it would be because he wanted to–not because he was unable to do something more intelligent or because he needed to. Which is the idea of the happy idiot. Anybody who collects trash now, does it because he needs to. Why would it be any different in Galt’s Gulch? ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/7 "2014-02-18T00:41:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Anybody who collects trash now, does it because he needs to. Why would it be any different in Galt’s Gulch? Because in Galt’s Gulch everyone does what they do because they want to, not because they can’t do anything else or because they need to. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/8 "2014-02-18T00:51:10Z")
I seem to recall that Dagny was introduced to a young man, who was a custodian or something like that, “but that’s not what I wanted to remain”. So, perhaps he collects trash now to pay the bills while he prepares himself for the career he wants. It has been a while since I last read it. I do agree that the “Story of Twentieth Century Motors” is one of the best parts of the book. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/9 "2014-02-18T00:51:12Z")
Even if your characterization of Galt’s Gulch were correct, which it is not, you are still missing the point. If no-one collects the trash, it will pile up and become a noisome and unsanitary mess. Therefore, everyone there will have a motive to do something about it, i.e. to pay someone to take care of it. A better question would be: where do they put the trash in Galt’s Gulch? You have to be careful of property rights, you can’t just establish a dump next to someone’s house and expect them to live with the smell. My guess would be that some entrepreneur would discover recycling and would burn the rest cleanly for energy. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/10 "2014-02-18T00:51:54Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > Because in Galt’s Gulch everyone does what they do because they want to, not because they can’t do anything else or because they need to. So, the laws of economics do not apply there? Strange, since it’s supposed to be all about free markets. What you’re describing there sounds a lot like the way Marx described Communism. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/11 "2014-02-18T00:55:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Anybody who collects trash now, does it because he needs to. Why would it be any different in Galt’s Gulch? Almost everyone who does a job, even well paid professionals, do it because they NEED to. They show up for work to a particular job because they WANT to. Garbage collectors generally do the job because it pays well. Why it would be different in Galt’s Gulch I cannot imagine. Someone will do the job because other people will pay for it to be done. The fewer people who like picking up garbage, the higher a price the job will command, and the more people who will be willing to do it for the money. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/12 "2014-02-18T00:56:01Z")
But isn’t Galt’s Gulch hidden? Maybe I don’t recall correctly, but Galt’s Gulch was hidden by some weird mirrors or something. How do they attract garbage collectors, do they leave Galt’s Gulch and recruit them? ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/13 "2014-02-18T01:03:48Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > But isn’t Galt’s Gulch hidden? Maybe I don’t recall correctly, but Galt’s Gulch was hidden by some weird mirrors or something. How do they attract garbage collectors, do they leave Galt’s Gulch and recruit them? There is no need to attract them, for there is naturally the correct number of people that want to collect trash, and don’t need to collect trash. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/14 "2014-02-18T01:11:27Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > But isn’t Galt’s Gulch hidden? Maybe I don’t recall correctly, but Galt’s Gulch was hidden by some weird mirrors or something. How do they attract garbage collectors, do they leave Galt’s Gulch and recruit them? John Galt invented some sort of advanced electrostatic motor that provided (loosely quoted) almost limitless power from the atmosphere. This magical device powered the ray screen that hid Galt’s Gulch as well as everything in Galt’s Gulch, and by extension the central conceit of the whole book. One may as well assume that everyone had a magic electrostatic trash incinerator on the private premises of their own private property which captured the smoke and compressed it into diamonds. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/15 "2014-02-18T01:20:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, the laws of economics do not apply there? Strange, since it’s supposed to be all about free markets. What you’re describing there sounds a lot like the way Marx described Communism. [As **Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor** explained in this thread;](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=715977) > [@](#): > > Rand’s philosophy is an inversion of Marxism, seeing politics as a struggle between a virtuous producer class that creates all wealth and the filthy parasites who exploit them. In contrast, Marx believed the workers produced all wealth and the parasitic capitalists robbed it from them. Also like Marx, Rand rejected Democracy and religion as con jobs, seeing them as swindles for the poor to gain power over the rich, where Marx believed the opposite. Both are, at times, correct. Both are, at times, incorrect. But both are, at all times, frauds, because the World is too complex to draw these broad generalizations. Which makes a bit of sense. Rand seeing her philosophy as the exact opposite of (but strangely similar to\*) Marxist Communism. - And being obsessed with it being opposite, making it a mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/16 "2014-02-18T01:23:33Z")
What I don’t get is Galt’s former boss at the 20th Century Motor Company, who spent a month each year at the Gulch from its start, yet never told his wife about it or made arrangements for her. Granted, she needed to stay outside and ignorant so she could point Dagny in Hugh Akston’s direction, but her husband was kind of a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/17 "2014-02-18T01:41:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Are you asking if it was in the book, or for us to extrapolate from the story? Assuming the latter, I’d say it would depend on who thought they could make money at garbage collection or thought it was something they could do and do well (and in the real world, a lot of folks seem to have made quite a large amount of money collecting the garbage…and making, repairing and maintaining icky things like sewers). In the real world, there are a lot of people who make money owning garbage collection companies. I don’t think very many people become rich by actually collecting garbage. As I understand it, the point of _Atlas Shrugged_ was that if you were valuable, you should be wealthy from doing whatever it was that makes you valuable. If you’re rich, it’s because you’re valuable and you earned your money. And the reverse is that if you’re poor, it’s because you are not giving value. There are no undeservedly rich or undeservedly poor people in Galt’s Gulch. So getting back to the OP’s question: how does garbage collection work in Galt’s Gulch? Is garbage collection a valuable service that makes garbagemen wealthy? If so, do garbagemen keep collecting garbage after they become wealthy? Are garbagemen poor - which therefore implies garbage collection isn’t valuable? Or is garbage collection a valuable service but one which does not make garbagemen wealthy? And if so, does this call into question one of the central tenets of objectivism by giving an example of something which is valuable work but does not produce wealth for the people who do it? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/18 "2014-02-18T02:02:46Z")
Which makes it all the more hilarious that Rand didn’t become rich doing what she thought was valuable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/19 "2014-02-18T02:31:10Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Which makes it all the more hilarious that Rand didn’t become rich doing what she thought was valuable. But she did get **powerful.** She had slavish followers. That was enough for her. Even though, in her philosophy/literature, there is nothing more contemptible than a person who seeks power over others for its own sake. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/20 "2014-02-18T02:32:26Z")
So much more the better. She never achieved wealth. She achieved only that which she despised. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=2)