# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/201 "2014-02-20T00:40:36Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > An even more interesting question how do the isolated elites _generate_ their wealth, not being a part of wider society, without a large body of workers to produce and a large body of consumers to purchase the results of their genius ? And what currency would they use since their stocks of the holy dollar are worthless outside the American world ? > > Perhaps swapping products and labour without cash as in primitive barter ? Or having Galt Dollars ? If so, there would be a severe devaluation compared to regular dollars in an isolated system — I imagine the North Korean currency is neither stable nor buoyant — and some appointed body would have to administer the currency, maybe a state bank like the Fed ? John Galt also invented the BitCoin. Versatile fellow. Unfortunately, he never got around to inventing the PC. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/202 "2014-02-20T00:45:08Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Do you feel that society should kowtow to the people who would blackmail it into providing trash service under the threat of letting their trash build up? > > Because that’s kind of the whole idea of the book. They wouldn’t invite someone to the Gulch who would let their trash build up and then blackmail the rest of the people to pay for it. It creates a system where the person who does nothing, is more important than the person who actually collects their own trash. Common sense tells us that the person who handles their own trash should be more valuable to society, but in your “gotcha” you seem to be saying that the person who doesn’t handle their trash is more powerful through extortion. But, what is there in Galt’s Gulch to prevent trash workers from unionizing? It’s something they’re free to do, isn’t it? Collective bargaining is just another form of negotiation-in-the-marketplace. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/203 "2014-02-20T01:21:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, if I’m a lazy moocher with no marketable skills or talents, but I accept Objectivism in principle, I can join; but, since the rules prohibit anyone from giving me a handout, I probably won’t stay long. Is that correct? The rules don’t prohibit anyone from giving you a handout. What rule were you thinking of? If there is any such “rule”, it would be more along the lines that no one would want to accept a hand-out. Hence, Dagny became a housekeeper so she wouldn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/204 "2014-02-20T01:25:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There **is** [such a breed of superior people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius), except that intelligence is not what distinguishes them. No, it isn’t, its freckles. Intelligence, yes, but also ruthlessness and a camouflage that encourages others to think us harmless and innocent. The Opie Factor. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/205 "2014-02-20T02:02:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One where Galt gives all credit to the Lord? The one being portrayed in this thread… BAM ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/206 "2014-02-20T02:04:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > … (that you obviously didn’t read)… You shitting me? Hell, I even read _Anthem_! In libraries, its usually shelved with science fiction, but the other books try to shrink away. I bought it, hook, line and stinker. She had me at “You’re better than they are, and whatever you can grab, you deserve.” I _underlined_ parts of that godawful monologue (hi-lighter had not been developed for use by kerosene lamp). The years have been kind enough to fuzz out a lot of it. But I don’t need to remember every yellow kernel of a corn studded turd, its still a turd. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/207 "2014-02-20T02:05:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Question: Who collects trash in Galt’s Gulch? > > Answer: Ayn Rand was a terrible person. > > And so it goes… yes but, who collects the thrash your inability to answer is far more telling even than your sarcasm ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/208 "2014-02-20T02:13:32Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes > > but, who collects the thrash > your inability to answer is far more telling even than your sarcasm The question has been answered adequately. I have nothing to add. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/209 "2014-02-20T02:13:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And if the thread was ‘How does garbage collection work in an objectivist society’ then you’d be absolutely correct. But it’s not. It’s how does it work in a fictional book in the context of the story. Galt’s Gulch is the prototypical objectivist society. So the question _“Who collects the trash in Galt’s Gulch?”_ and _“How does garbage collection work in an objectivist society?”_ is really the same question. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/210 "2014-02-20T02:20:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Galt’s Gulch is the prototypical objectivist society. So the question _“Who collects the trash in Galt’s Gulch?”_ and _“How does garbage collection work in an objectivist society?”_ is really the same question. But it’s not a very interesting question, as it has so many answers. I’ve always been big on recycling. We take it for granted in most the US that curb side recycling is the norm. But it didn’t used to be. And back then, I used to drive all my recyclables to the central collection point in town and dump them there myself. True story. Why would an Objectivist society not have garbage collectors? It’s a business that runs for a profit, it’s not a charity (not that an Objectivist society would have no charities). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/211 "2014-02-20T02:32:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The question has been answered adequately. I have nothing to add. someone would figure out a way to make money at it sounds like what already happens in the real world. what if i dont want to pay for trash removal and i dump all my trash on the back of my property next to your property. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/212 "2014-02-20T02:53:01Z")
Do Galtians make the Sign of the Dollar to ward off hippies? ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/213 "2014-02-20T05:45:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > someone would figure out a way to make money at it sounds like what already happens in the real world. what if i dont want to pay for trash removal and i dump all my trash on the back of my property next to your property. Have you read the book? Because that’s the whole point. Simple version: There are bad people who use their inabilities as tools of extortion to guide society. This makes people with zero abilities more important than people with ability. Just like how you feel that not handling your garbage properly is a proper threat to get your way. I haven’t read the books in a decade but it amazes me that you could read three pages on a message board and become the perfect Randian antagonist. The very first thing you think of is how to game the system to your advantage and to the detriment of all the other “good” people who handle their trash. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/214 "2014-02-20T05:53:52Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Have you read the book? Because that’s the whole point. > > Simple version: > > There are bad people who use their inabilities as tools of extortion to guide society. This makes people with zero abilities more important than people with ability. Just like how you feel that not handling your garbage properly is a proper threat to get your way. > I haven’t read the books in a decade but it amazes me that you could read three pages on a message board and become the perfect Randian antagonist. The very first thing you think of is how to game the system to your advantage and to the detriment of all the other “good” people who handle their trash. ok so what happens if i dump all my trash on the property line next to your house? ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/215 "2014-02-20T06:11:53Z")
If we are working within the constraints of the book: You wouldn’t be asked to live in the Gulch in the first place. You being a moocher who is using extortion to get your garbage cleaned up. If we were outside of the Gulch, I would move to the Gulch and your next neighbor would also dump their garbage on the property line leading to everyone outside of the Gulch living in trash. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/216 "2014-02-20T06:36:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would an Objectivist society not have garbage collectors? It’s a business that runs for a profit, it’s not a charity (not that an Objectivist society would have no charities). But you’re missing the central issue. It’s not enough for somebody in Galt’s Gulch to own a garbage collection company. That garbage company also has to have a bunch of employees who drive trucks around and pick up garbage cans and dump the garbage into a truck. So who are these employees? That’s the central topic of the thread: Who collects the trash in Galt’s Gulch? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/217 "2014-02-20T06:47:01Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > If we are working within the constraints of the book: > > You wouldn’t be asked to live in the Gulch in the first place. You being a moocher who is using extortion to get your garbage cleaned up. > > If we were outside of the Gulch, I would move to the Gulch and your next neighbor would also dump their garbage on the property line leading to everyone outside of the Gulch living in trash. so what yo are saying is that the only way for the ideals in her book to work is to be held in a pretend world where everyone acts perfectly? ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/218 "2014-02-20T06:50:31Z")
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**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/219 "2014-02-20T07:00:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so what yo are saying is that the only way for the ideals in her book to work is to be held in a pretend world where everyone acts perfectly? First off it is a book of fiction, not everything is to be taken as fact. Too address your point: You seem to be suggesting that the “real” world is one in which everyone of ability should grovel in the face of inability and just kowtow to those that would trash the place rather than help it. That seems to be your argument, that the real world is one that we give in to every person who would just as soon dump their trash everywhere they see fit rather than working towards a world where the people who create have the power over those who destroy. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/220 "2014-02-20T07:09:28Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > First off it is a book of fiction, not everything is to be taken as fact. > > Too address your point: > > You seem to be suggesting that the “real” world is one in which everyone of ability should grovel in the face of inability and just kowtow to those that would trash the place rather than help it. That seems to be your argument, that the real world is one that we give in to every person who would just as soon dump their trash everywhere they see fit rather than working towards a world where the people who create have the power over those who destroy. you can’t have it both ways, you can’t respond to potential flaws to her ideology by saying “its fiction” but then take the parts you like, producers vs moochers, and come up with Rand based ideas as a way to fix things, not when you ignore the flaws of her ideas. comprende? what we are talking about here is an example of a delima, what do you do to compel people to adhere to civic responsibility in a system with no regulation or enforcement. now perhaps this example is a bit bad, in real life most people do take their trash to the dump or burn it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=12)