# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/301 "2014-02-20T20:47:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If you think Rand is extreme, Rothbard will blow your mind. ok, kind of hard to believe it :smack: but i’ll check it out 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/302 "2014-02-20T21:32:54Z")
Ill see your dystopia and raise you two utopias. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/303 "2014-02-20T22:38:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > ok, kind of hard to believe it :smack: You find it hard to believe that something you’ve never read is slightly more extreme than something else that you have also never read? Seriously. Just stop for a second and thin about what you just posted. It’s an almost exact quote from a “Blackadder” episode. that should tell you something But it probably won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/304 "2014-02-20T23:42:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > People for whom this is the best job they can get. Same as in the real world. In the book, not every Gulchian is a super-genius, like John. If you had read the book, you would know that. But why would such a person want to be a Gulchian in the first place? Galt’s Gulch may be a great place if you’re a super-genius like John Galt but what is it offering to everyone who isn’t a super-genius? Isn’t the outside world a better place for everyone who isn’t a super-genius? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/305 "2014-02-21T00:11:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But why would such a person want to be a Gulchian in the first place? Galt’s Gulch may be a great place if you’re a super-genius like John Galt but what is it offering to everyone who isn’t a super-genius? Isn’t the outside world a better place for everyone who isn’t a super-genius? In the mythos of the book it’s a great place for anyone at any economic level who is a producer. In addition, again from the story, the rest of the world is falling apart, and the collapse of civilization which starts off slowly at the beginning is escalating throughout the book, with a sense of doom hovering over everyone, until in the end Galt et al manages to knock out the last pillars and pretty much the whole things comes crashing down. So, no…the outside world wasn’t a better place for anyone at all. I know it’s like a broken record at this point, but all of this stuff is in the story, Nemo. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/306 "2014-02-21T01:35:43Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > OK then… the perception by the public at large, the very STRONG perception linking Rand and Libertarianism, is that more the fault of the public or is that more the fault of mismanagement on the Libertarian side? Maybe it’s the fault of those who don’t read books on the subjects. Hence the tagline of this website. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/307 "2014-02-21T01:49:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > …Galt et al manages to knock out the last pillars and pretty much the whole things comes crashing down… Presumably, at considerable cost in terms of human suffering. Its been a long time, and its going to get longer, but I don’t recall if Galt ever expresses any qualms about that. And if not, how are we expected to distinguish his behavior from any other egomaniacal sociopath? He’s a “producer”? Death and misery being his product? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/308 "2014-02-21T01:51:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes, but can you admit that at least some of the claims about Rand and poor writing skills are correct? that it is an incredibly polemic book, writing style not withstanding? that the books are very very long for people who aren’t that interested? > > i’ll give credit to your points. it is one thing to read a synopsis of Kant or Hegel and another to actually read the works themself. Do keep in mind that the book being discussed here, Atlas Shrugged, is a novel. And a page-turner at that. Until you get to the speech anyway. The fact that so many people read her books is testament to their readability. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/309 "2014-02-21T02:02:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But why would such a person want to be a Gulchian in the first place? Galt’s Gulch may be a great place if you’re a super-genius like John Galt but what is it offering to everyone who isn’t a super-genius? Isn’t the outside world a better place for everyone who isn’t a super-genius? How about, for instance, a world where you get paid for your individual worth. Some people might like taking Job A and being pooled in with hundreds or thousands of others with the understanding that on Year 1, I’ll make X, Year 2, Y, etc. Others find that unfairly limiting. So they might want to leave a union environment with one that offers a more direct relationship between one’s work and their payment for that work. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/310 "2014-02-21T02:15:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Presumably, at considerable cost in terms of human suffering. Its been a long time, and its going to get longer, but I don’t recall if Galt ever expresses any qualms about that. And if not, how are we expected to distinguish his behavior from any other egomaniacal sociopath? He’s a “producer”? Death and misery being his product? It’s been a long time since I read it too, but Galt considers the system that he’s bringing down to be immoral, unsustainable and the root of suffering. So from his perspective, he’s fixing the suffering. Besides which of course, Rand would say that merely the fact that someone is suffering does not give them a claim on you. You have to value their happiness for it to matter. Pretty much everyone already lives like this. Rand only says it out loud. Apparently this makes her evil. And really, as for Galt expressing qualms, pretty much all he does is ask people to offer passive resistance. He merely asks people of ability and expertise to stop contributing it to a system. So the philosopher takes a job as a diner cook out in the middle of nowhere, Galt himself works as a sweeper(?). Why should he express qualms? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/311 "2014-02-21T02:31:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Presumably, at considerable cost in terms of human suffering. Its been a long time, and its going to get longer, but I don’t recall if Galt ever expresses any qualms about that. And if not, how are we expected to distinguish his behavior from any other egomaniacal sociopath? He’s a “producer”? Death and misery being his product? Oh, to be sure there was a huge cost…even before the last pillar goes down people were basically rioting and starving, plus essential infrastructure was going down all over as well as manufacturing. It’s been a while for me, but I seem to recall that Galt was sad but determined, like any revolutionary who thinks his cause is just, etc etc, blah blah blah. He felt the old system needed to be stopped, and that he knew a better way. In the context of the story, you could ask the same from the moochers that were in power…the high powered industrialists who were in bed with the corrupt politicians, military and scientists creating weapons to keep the people in line (such as the sonic death ray they used). They were MUCH more responsible, in the story, for what happened than Galt, who was basically doing the Gandhi routine of passive resistance (by basically just taking his skills and talents off the table, and asking others to do the same). I don’t really want to recap the entire story, nor defend every little nit pick you want to toss out, so what does any of this have to do with who collects the trash in the gulch? I’m not trying to be snide here, but basically any story can be nit picked, and if you really want to discuss the underlying theme or philosophy (though why you’d want to is a mystery to me, beyond just wanting to nit pick details), then start a thread in Cafe Society. I’m hardly an expert on AS or even Fountainhead (which I actually liked a lot more than AS), but I know there are 'dopers who are. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/312 "2014-02-21T02:37:43Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > It’s been a long time since I read it too, but Galt considers the system that he’s bringing down to be immoral, unsustainable and the root of suffering. So from his perspective, he’s fixing the suffering. Besides which of course, Rand would say that merely the fact that someone is suffering does not give them a claim on you. You have to value their happiness for it to matter. Pretty much everyone already lives like this. Rand only says it out loud. Apparently this makes her evil. > > And really, as for Galt expressing qualms, pretty much all he does is ask people to offer passive resistance. He merely asks people of ability and expertise to stop contributing it to a system. So the philosopher takes a job as a diner cook out in the middle of nowhere, Galt himself works as a sweeper(?). Why should he express qualms? He was a track walker for the rail road I think. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/313 "2014-02-21T02:39:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ayn Rand made heroes out of villains and got the villains of the world to believe they were heroes for acting villainously. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not saying that the characters in the book that are portrayed as heroes were actually villians. And people criticize Ayn Rand for being logically inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/314 "2014-02-21T02:43:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But why would such a person want to be a Gulchian in the first place? Galt’s Gulch may be a great place if you’re a super-genius like John Galt but what is it offering to everyone who isn’t a super-genius? Isn’t the outside world a better place for everyone who isn’t a super-genius? The opportunity to fulfill your potential withouts someone mooching off of you. Maybe I’m an artist who isn’t quite ready to give up my day job because, you know, I don’t expect a hand out from people until I’m able to fulfill my potential. Or maybe I don’t have any super talents at all, but just want to live my life without having to support every moocher who thinks they have a claim on my earnings. I’m quite happy to do the grunt work, get paid, and not have to worry about anything else. Galtians produce garbage and garbage needs to be collected. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/315 "2014-02-21T03:44:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Oh, to be sure there was a huge cost…even before the last pillar goes down people were basically rioting and starving, plus essential infrastructure was going down all over as well as manufacturing. > > It’s been a while for me, but I seem to recall that Galt was sad but determined, like any revolutionary who thinks his cause is just, etc etc, blah blah blah. He felt the old system needed to be stopped, and that he knew a better way. In the context of the story, you could ask the same from the moochers that were in power…the high powered industrialists who were in bed with the corrupt politicians, military and scientists creating weapons to keep the people in line (such as the sonic death ray they used). They were MUCH more responsible, in the story, for what happened than Galt, who was basically doing the Gandhi routine of passive resistance (by basically just taking his skills and talents off the table, and asking others to do the same). > > I don’t really want to recap the entire story, nor defend every little nit pick you want to toss out, so what does any of this have to do with who collects the trash in the gulch? I’m not trying to be snide here, but basically any story can be nit picked, and if you really want to discuss the underlying theme or philosophy (though why you’d want to is a mystery to me, beyond just wanting to nit pick details), then start a thread in Cafe Society. I’m hardly an expert on AS or even Fountainhead (which I actually liked a lot more than AS), but I know there are 'dopers who are. Sure as hell nobody making you read any of them, hoss. Nor answer. I will continue to read yours, of course. Galt as Gandhi is an analogy I will treasure and share. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/316 "2014-02-21T04:02:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sure as hell nobody making you read any of them, hoss. Nor answer. I will continue to read yours, of course. Galt as Gandhi is an analogy I will treasure and share. Well, as with all analogies, it only goes so far. AFAIK, Galt didn’t sleep with teen age girls to test his celibacy or shave his head…and their motivations, outlook and basic philosophy were diametrically opposed. But on the non-violence angle? Galt doesn’t set out to be a violent revolutionary, even allows the government goons and evil scientist guy to torture him rather than submit (or take over), so I don’t see it as all that off the wall. Now, Galt’s buddies were certainly not the non-violent types, especially the pirate dude. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/317 "2014-02-21T05:18:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Galt as Gandhi is an analogy I will treasure and share. What makes you think it far fetched? In the matter of form of protest against what each believed to be injustice, their methods are identical, and the analogy is as near exact as you can hope for. They both refuse to co-operate with laws that they believe exploit them, and inspire others to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/318 "2014-02-21T06:41:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I know it’s like a broken record at this point, but all of this stuff is in the story, Nemo. There’s two ways of looking at this. The first is to declare that Rand’s politics were completely fictional. They’re like Rowling’s rules of magic. They were intended to exist only within her fiction and have no connection with reality. The Ayn Rand Institute would be appalled to hear objectivism being dismissed this way. The second way is to take objectivism seriously and feel that Rand wrote her fiction to convey political ideas which she felt had significance in the real world. And that means objectivism as a political theory has a separate existence from its appearance in Rand’s fiction. And that means it’s not necessary to know Rand’s fiction in order to discuss objectivism. So deal with it. > [@XT](#): > > In the mythos of the book it’s a great place for anyone at any economic level who is a producer. In addition, again from the story, the rest of the world is falling apart, and the collapse of civilization which starts off slowly at the beginning is escalating throughout the book, with a sense of doom hovering over everyone, until in the end Galt et al manages to knock out the last pillars and pretty much the whole things comes crashing down. So, no…the outside world wasn’t a better place for anyone at all. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The opportunity to fulfill your potential withouts someone mooching off of you. Maybe I’m an artist who isn’t quite ready to give up my day job because, you know, I don’t expect a hand out from people until I’m able to fulfill my potential. > > Or maybe I don’t have any super talents at all, but just want to live my life without having to support every moocher who thinks they have a claim on my earnings. I’m quite happy to do the grunt work, get paid, and not have to worry about anything else. Galtians produce garbage and garbage needs to be collected. I can accept as a premise the idea that society consists of moochers and producers. But I can’t accept the idea that a society of just producers will function. The producers need some moochers around to do the work. You can’t have an economy where everyone is a boss and nobody is a worker just as you can’t have a society where everyone is a noble and nobody is a peasant. Galt’s Gulch is supposed to be a society which is a great place to live if you’re a producer and a terrible place to live if you’re a moocher (in fact, it’s a place where moochers are forbidden to live). So we have to assume that everyone living in Galt’s Gulch is a producer. And why would any producer want to give up his potential as a producer and live and work like a moocher would? Who are the producers who are going to want to spend the rest of their lives picking up garbage for no reward beyond a possible minimum wage? We know it can’t be some sense of individuals sacrificing their well being to the needs of society because Rand denounces that. Or do we have a bunch of epsilons running around who have no desire to be alphas? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/319 "2014-02-21T06:49:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s two ways of looking at this. > > The first is to declare that Rand’s politics were completely fictional. They’re like Rowling’s rules of magic. They were intended to exist only within her fiction and have no connection with reality. > > The Ayn Rand Institute would be appalled to hear objectivism being dismissed this way. > > The second way is to take objectivism seriously and feel that Rand wrote her fiction to convey political ideas which she felt had significance in the real world. And that means objectivism as a political theory has a separate existence from its appearance in Rand’s fiction. > > And that means it’s not necessary to know Rand’s fiction in order to discuss objectivism. So deal with it. > I can accept as a premise the idea that society consists of moochers and producers. But I can’t accept the idea that a society of just producers will function. The producers need some moochers around to do the work. You can’t have an economy where everyone is a boss and nobody is a worker just as you can’t have a society where everyone is a noble and nobody is a peasant. > > Galt’s Gulch is supposed to be a society which is a great place to live if you’re a producer and a terrible place to live if you’re a moocher (in fact, it’s a place where moochers are forbidden to live). So we have to assume that everyone living in Galt’s Gulch is a producer. > > And why would any producer want to give up his potential as a producer and live and work like a moocher would? Who are the producers who are going to want to spend the rest of their lives picking up garbage for no reward beyond a possible minimum wage? We know it can’t be some sense of individuals sacrificing their well being to the needs of society because Rand denounces that. Or do we have a bunch of epsilons running around who have no desire to be alphas? hey, i agree with you, but wouldn’t the answer from a Rand POV be: Or maybe I don’t have any super talents at all, but just want to live my life without having to support every moocher who thinks they have a claim on my earnings. I’m quite happy to do the grunt work, get paid, and not have to worry about anything else. Galtians produce garbage and garbage needs to be collected. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/320 "2014-02-21T07:11:54Z")
Little Nemo, you seem to have a mistaken belief that Moocher is synonymous with “Blue Collar”. For the twentieth time, it is not. Many Moochers are are wealthy, white collar types. These are in fact portrayed as the worst of the worst. Many producers are blue collar workers. Now read through your last post with that in mind, and note how it doesn’t make any damn sense. Amongst the more egregious flaws in the post: 1)Producers do not need moochers around. Ever. 2) Moochers are not needed to do work. Ever. Producers are far more effective at doing work. Moochers at best drag down the work effort of everyone else. 3) Galt’s gulch is in no sense a society of all bosses and no workers. It is in fact a society comprised entirely of workers, some of whom were also bosses. As already noted, there were housekeepers, gardeners and many more. 4) Being a garbage man is not “living like a moocher would”. If the most productive manner of earning a living is to be a garbageman, then that is what a producer will do. 5) Nobody is giving up anything by being a garbage man. They do it because it is the best they can achieve right now. Nothing is being given up by achieving the most that one can. By definition. 6) The producers who want to make a career as a garbage man will be few and far between. Just as in our society almost nobody is a career garbage man. It is a transition job. But if being a garbage man is the best that a person can ever achieve then they will indeed be a lifelong garbage man. Just as in the real world. The only difference is that society won’t tolerate people quitting being a garbage man to go on welfare or otherwise make a living exploiting others. Seriously man, these questions have all been addressed at least a dozen times in this thread. yet you churn out another post showing the same utter misunderstanding. You seem to have a desperate desire to equate moocher with “blue collar worker”, and no matter how many times that is pointed out that you are wrong on that point, or by how many people, you will not accept it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=17)