# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/341 "2014-02-21T17:29:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The fact that so many people read her books is testament to their readability. It is testament to the appeal of her ideology to alienated teenagers and I-got-mine 1%ers. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/342 "2014-02-21T17:29:58Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you’re the head of Widget Corp. and you employ ten thousand people in the small town of Widgetville, if you close shop tomorrow, then as a result of your actions, ten thousand families are thrown into disarray. > > This, of course, assumes that you don’t resell the shop to new owners, put your foreman in charge, whatever. If you actually disband your business overnight, you have to admit to yourself that because of your actions, human misery is increasing. > > And if those actions are the result of a petulant tantrum because of _hatred of the moochers_, well that’s not better. > > Of course you can quit any time you want. But quitting in a way that disrupts the lives of tens of thousands isn’t very nice. If you’re the head of Widget Corp, and the ten thousand people in town who work in the factory you established form the government and decide that your profits are to be taxed away so that you gain absolutely nothing, and then you have to work extra hours each week so that everyone in town can afford a new car, what then? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/343 "2014-02-21T17:31:35Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > What makes you think it far fetched? In the matter of form of protest against what each believed to be injustice, their methods are identical, and the analogy is as near exact as you can hope for. They both refuse to co-operate with laws that they believe exploit them, and inspire others to do the same. But it is rather hard to think of Gandhi as an Objectivist, or expounding on the “virtue of selfishness.” ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/344 "2014-02-21T17:35:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But it is rather hard to think of Gandhi as an Objectivist, or expounding on the “virtue of selfishness.” I agree, but no one is asking you to do so. XT said > [@](#): > > They were MUCH more responsible, in the story, for what happened than Galt, who was basically doing the Gandhi routine of passive resistance (by basically just taking his skills and talents off the table, and asking others to do the same). And that is spot on. Galt was, in fact, pretty much exactly following Gandhi’s tactics of protest. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/345 "2014-02-21T17:36:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Moochers were rent-seekers; those who sought government subsidies, monopoly privilege, and such. The idle rich aren’t moochers, because they aren’t taking anything from anyone. The idle rich are [_rentiers_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier_capitalism) by definition; they simply draw income from things they own, like nobles in 18th Century France. See [economic rent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent) – it also exists in the **private** sector. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/346 "2014-02-21T17:38:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you’re the head of Widget Corp. and you employ ten thousand people in the small town of Widgetville, if you close shop tomorrow, then as a result of your actions, ten thousand families are thrown into disarray. > > This, of course, assumes that you don’t resell the shop to new owners, put your foreman in charge, whatever. If you actually disband your business overnight, you have to admit to yourself that because of your actions, human misery is increasing. No, you don’t. Assuming Widget Corp was a viable business, then the workers can start a new widget corporation if they need one, or offer to buy the existing corporation. But the fact is, when you work for someone else, that someone else might decide at any time that he doesn’t have work for you any more. If that is a problem for you, then you shouldn’t work for someone else. Would you favor passing laws that say business owners cannot abandon their businesses if they choose? That they are required to keep their businesses afloat? > [@](#): > > And if those actions are the result of a petulant tantrum because of _hatred of the moochers_, well that’s not better. In the book, of course, it’s hardly a tantrum given the laws that were being passed to expropriate private property and control business. No one allowed to fire anyone. Everyone had to produce the amount of products dictated by the government. The US was, essentially, being turned into the USSR. Remember, the book was fiction. > [@](#): > > Of course you can quit any time you want. But quitting in a way that disrupts the lives of tens of thousands isn’t very nice. Probably not, but it’s also not very “nice” to turn the US into the USSR, as was happening in the book. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/347 "2014-02-21T17:38:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No man has a duty to live for another. No man can thrive unless others live for him. It’s called “society.” ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/348 "2014-02-21T17:38:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is testament to the appeal of her ideology to alienated teenagers and I-got-mine 1%ers. Is it your position that teenagers, alienated or otherwise, would slog through hundreds of pages of a book that they find unreadable because the ideology, which is revealed fully only as the book approaches its end, appeals to them? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/349 "2014-02-21T17:40:36Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Is it your position that teenagers, alienated or otherwise, would slog through hundreds of pages of a book that they find unreadable because the ideology, which is revealed fully only as the book approaches its end, appeals to them? Sure, if they’ve read _Anthem_ first, which we all did (it was the shortest book on the summer reading list). ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/350 "2014-02-21T17:43:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No man can thrive unless others live for him. It’s called “society.” And Rand does not propose an end to society. She proposes to an end to the idea that it is a virtue for someone to live _exclusively_ for someone else. Again, parents giving up things so their child can be healthy and happy is high up on Rand’s lists of virtues. Parents giving up their child’s health and happiness so that someone who they don’t appreciate or care about can be better off, and be told it is their duty, _that_ is what Rand would regard as evil. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/351 "2014-02-21T17:45:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sure, if they’ve read _Anthem_ first, which we all did (it was the shortest book on the summer reading list). If you’ve read Anthem, you should know that it presents little, if anything, of Rand’s ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/352 "2014-02-21T17:45:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The idle rich are [_rentiers_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier_capitalism) by definition; they simply draw income from things they own, like nobles in 18th Century France. See [economic rent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent) – it also exists in the **private** sector. [Rent-seeking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking) is distinct from merely income from rent. Drawing income from things one owns isn’t, by itself, rent-seeking. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/353 "2014-02-21T18:53:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Rent-seeking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking) is distinct from merely income from rent. Drawing income from things one owns isn’t, by itself, rent-seeking. I don’t know about that. I have often seen the behavior of health-insurance companies described as rent-seeking. What they “own” is an organization and a position in the marketplace. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/354 "2014-02-21T18:55:15Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > If you’ve read Anthem, you should know that it presents little, if anything, of Rand’s ideology. The message that “I” matters more than “we” seems to be the root of it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/355 "2014-02-21T19:51:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But why would such a person want to be a Gulchian in the first place? Galt’s Gulch may be a great place if you’re a super-genius like John Galt but what is it offering to everyone who isn’t a super-genius? Isn’t the outside world a better place for everyone who isn’t a super-genius? Is it better to be a garbage collector in the USA or Zimbabwe? Rand is positing that Galt’s Gulch is rich. Great place to work. Whether Galt’s Gulch would be rich in the real world is a different matter, but in the universe of the book it is rich, so it’d be a great place to be a garbage collector. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/356 "2014-02-21T19:55:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t know about that. I have often seen the behavior of health-insurance companies described as rent-seeking. What they “own” is an organization and a position in the marketplace. Health insurance companies can and do engage in rent-seeking behavior (such as lobbying Congress for a law requiring everyone to buy what they sell). That said, their actual business of selling insurance policies isn’t based on rent, because there’s no element of exclusivity. Insurance companies have no right to the exclusive use of anything, unlike a landowner, patent holder, or a firm that’s been granted a monopoly. Example A: A rich person owns some valuable oceanside property, and rents it to tenants for a fee. He is able to do this because he has exclusive right to use that land, as enforced by the government, by virtue of owning it. His income is rent, but he isn’t a rent-seeker. Example B: A barber in town is unhappy with the number of competing barbers, driving the price of haircuts. He lobbies the local government to start licensing barbers, with no more than ten licenses outstanding at any one time, one of which naturally goes to him. His income isn’t rent, he’s still getting paid by the haircut. He is a rent-seeker, though, and the portion of his income represented by the increase in the price of haircuts could be called rent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/357 "2014-02-21T21:29:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How is that logically inconsistent? Are you kidding me? In one post you say “Ayn Rand did X” then when asked how, you say “Ayn Rand didn’t actually do X”. > [@](#): > > Ayn Rand paints a tediously pretty picture of her heroes as if they actually existed, as if her portrayal of the world was anything close to reality. She might as well be talking about narnia with a wicked queen and a noble Aslan. I cam make Kim Jong Un seem like a swell guy if I remove context and tell the story only from his point of view. > > The problem is that people think they see something they like about her ideas because especially in a world where the folks with entrenched social and economic privilege are losing their privilege and they think its because its being stolen from them. I guarantee you that most of the people who are Rand supporters in this thread are white male (or a peculiar brand of feminist female). Sure Rand distinguishes between good rich people and bad rich people but in the real world, they are the same people. > > Sure there might be some virtuous paragon out there like Hank Reardon but I can’t think of a single one. Not Steve Jobs, not Bill Gates, not Warren Buffett (and I practically worship that man) First of all, Ayn Rand explicitly does not try to portray “the real World”, so saying her characters aren’t realistic is like saying no one looks like the folks in a Cubist painting. Secondly, I’m not seeing how Bill Gates or Warren Buffett are significantly less of “paragons of virtue” than is Hank Reardon. I’m not seeing anything significantly “bad” about either BG or WB. Not in the sense of an actually bad person like Bernie Madoff. ---
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/358 "2014-02-21T21:35:24Z")
What happens when the people who collect garbage, clean houses and serve food in the gulch can’t earn enough money to live doing these jobs? Obviously plenty of the characters were happy enough to take any job as long as they weren’t mooching, but what do they do when 50 hours a week of physically strenuous labor doesn’t earn you enough to pay rent and buy food? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/359 "2014-02-21T21:56:52Z")
Work more hours, get a better job, or leave the Gulch. Why? What did you think they would do? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/360 "2014-02-21T22:01:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Work more hours, get a better job, or leave the Gulch. > > Why? What did you think they would do? Probably that Galt would have the pirate guy bust a cap in him or use the unfortunate as a lighter to get his fine Cuban cigar going just right (they always taste better lit on the backs of the working class peasantry after all), or something. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=19)