# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/521 "2014-02-25T05:28:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > While were at it, can someone explain to me WTF is going on with those malformed people in many of Picasso’s painting? Eyes in the wrong place, all the proportions wrong. It’s not _realistic_ at all!?!?!? Off topic, perhaps, but Picasso was trying to demonstrate how a static two-dimensional image cannot capture a living subject. The subject is moving. The viewer is moving. We perceive depth and distance. So when we look at a person what we’re really seeing is a collection of different images which our minds assemble into a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/522 "2014-02-25T05:28:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, you’re saying it’s not realistic, is that right? It’s just bad writing, period. It would be bad writing no matter _what_ the setting was, so please get off this “well, it’s not _supposed_ to be realistic!” kick you’re on and try another tack. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/523 "2014-02-25T05:36:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Exactly. And if folks wanted to criticize what’s actually in the book(s) then that would be fine. We could have a meaningful discussion. As I’ve said, I liked fountainhead more than I did AS…and any number of books more than either. And I can definitely see how a lot of the theme and concepts would rub folks the wrong way. > > But the stuff being spewed in this thread are ludicrous, especially considering that few people doing the spewing have bothered to actually read the thing, and are merely spewing their impression of what they think is in there, based on their own ignorance and probably 2nd and 3rd hand snippets. And as I have said, that would be a valid criticism - if the answer was found in the book. But it isn’t. So saying only people who have read the book are allowed to speculate on what the answer would be is nonsense. That said, I’ve had enough of arguing the point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/524 "2014-02-25T06:06:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s just bad writing, period. That’s a different type of criticism. > [@](#): > > It would be bad writing no matter _what_ the setting was, so please get off this “well, it’s not _supposed_ to be realistic!” kick you’re on and try another tack. When someone criticized it for not being realistic, I’m going to call them on it. If they want to argue something else, like it’s bad writing, then they should argue that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/525 "2014-02-25T06:13:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Huh…I’d go with 75% dissing of Rand, 20% of folks talking out of their ass or asking inane (and what they probably feel are oh so leading) questions since they haven’t read the books , with the remaining 5% bothering to address the OP…and all of the rest exploring the burning question of objectivism. I think the dissing of Rand is more the dissing of Rand’s modern day acolytes. See, tea party. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re wrong, again. Do not make the assumption that USA in _Atlas Shrugged_ is the USA you know and love. It was not. You’ve been told this I don’t know how many times in this thread, but I’ll do it one more time: The USA in _Atlas_ was more like the USSR, perhaps worse. I think people are criticizing generous application of the principles of Atlas to the USA we know and love by Rand’s acolytes. If it was fiction and not really about the USA then why do so many of Rand’s acolytes treat it like it is exactly about the USA and feel that the world of Atlas Shrugged is manifesting itself in America right now (or at least since 2008). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a different type of criticism. It was tedious, long winded, hard to read more, played to the egos of a particular type of person and was fairly unconvincing but I didn’t notice very many spelling mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/526 "2014-02-25T06:54:52Z")
Was it unrealistic? Yeah, something like that. Scarlett Johansson. is kinda hot. Donald Trump is sorta a douche. So, I’ve admitted something that means you totally win the internet? Gotcha me, ya? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/527 "2014-02-25T07:19:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a different type of criticism. > When someone criticized it for not being realistic, I’m going to call them on it. If they want to argue something else, like it’s bad writing, then they should argue that. I’ll try to make this as simple as possible: _It was unrealistic within the context of the story itself_. Now, if _all_ you can understand in the sentence I just posted is the word “unrealistic”, then perhaps you can have someone else explain the rest of the sentence to you. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/528 "2014-02-25T09:27:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A strike in Galt’s Gulch is a strike in name only-it seems to translate directly to a mass quitting. There is no power, no leverage, no value to a strike in Galt’s Gulch. So you don’t think an entire workforce threatening to walk off the job carries with it some power? I’ve never understood people who believe that workers have no power whatsoever unless the government gives it to them. A threat of a strike is a powerful weapon without any government involvement at all. Workers represent a LOT of sunk costs - training, the downtime when a position is not filled, but most of all the loss of their skill and knowledge. Hiring new people costs a lot of money. Having a factory shut down for even a few days can cost millions. Losing an entire workforce or even a large portion of it can have devastating consequences. Not only that, but if the company’s practices are so bad that the workforce is threatening to leave, just firing them isn’t an option because the next workforce will do the same thing. That business simply won’t survive if it’s that hostile to its workforce. I know the left’s vision of labor relations assumes that workers are replaceable cogs in a machine, and every business would like to treat its employees like 19th century rail workers, but that’s just not reality. Businesses work their asses off to keep their employees happy - not because the businessmen are necessarily good people or because the government forces them to, but because the alternative is really freaking expensive. That said, labor negotiations are, well, negotiations. That generally means you don’t always get what you want - and neither does business. That’s why it’s a wonderful thing that you always have the option to walk away if the terms aren’t satisfactory of if the job conditions deteriorate - just as the employer has the right to fire you if your work deteriorates. In 2012, 1.6 million workers in America made minimum wage. There were about 127 million workers in the same year, so only a little over 1% of workers make minimum wage. ALL the rest of them have negotiated better deal despite no regulation demanding it, simply because they have bargaining power. Their bargaining power consists mainly in the value of their own labor, since only a small percentage belong to labor unions. That’s why the minimum wage workers are generally the ones who are the most replaceable and have the least bargaining power and leave labor value. About half of them are under age 25. Many are part-time workers. When people with bargaining power pool together, their power increases. The proper balance of power between labor and management occurs when laborers are allowed to pool their bargaining power together, but the employer has the right to fire them if he decides that’s best - although it will incur a huge cost. In Galt’s Gulch, anyone can strike. Anyone can choose to fire their striking workers. As for who takes out the trash - why, anyone willing to do the job for a price that the rest of the people are willing to pay. If no one does it, it will pile up on properties until it starts to damage other people’s property, at which point it would be expected to be removed. So either all those rich people will be hauling their own garbage, or they’ll pay someone to haul it for them. Since a rich person’s time is valuable to them, they’ll be willing to pay quite a lot for garbage service. A Randian garbage collector would be someone who finds satisfaction in hauling garbage either because they’re good at it, or because it allows them to live in a good society with many advantages without forcing someone else to pay for their existence. And that’s all Rand asks of workers - do the job you say you’ll do for the price you agreed to do it. Don’t expect someone to give you more than you earn, and honor the commitments you made to your employer. The employer is expected to do the same. Both sides are working in their own self-interest, but because they are free people their relationship is defined by terms they both voluntarily agreed to. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/529 "2014-02-25T12:54:27Z")
Wow! Turns out that Ayn Rand was kinda libertarian, just like all the really smart and profound people! Like that Canadian guy, Kid Rock! No, wait, that isn’t it… Janet Granite! No, no…Sam Shale! Closer, on the tip of my mind… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/530 "2014-02-25T13:06:25Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When people with bargaining power pool together, their power increases. The proper balance of power between labor and management occurs when laborers are allowed to pool their bargaining power together, but the employer has the right to fire them if he decides that’s best - although it will incur a huge cost. But in Galt’s Gulch the factory owners can conspire together to fire anyone who might try to organize any sort of a worker’s union, which means that a worker’s union will probably never form, while the owner’s union is strong and thriving. The _individual_ worker has absolutely no negotiation power because she/he is up against _all_ the owners. edited to add: Of course this applies only in the secret town of Galt’s Gulch, not the real world. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/531 "2014-02-25T14:40:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ll try to make this as simple as possible: _It was unrealistic within the context of the story itself_. Too simple, I’m afraid. Yes, that’s a declarative statement, but can you back it up with any facts? So far, you have declared the speech to be not consistent with the world created. Two of us who have read the book disagree with that. Remember: Man does not live on bread alone. Oh wait, I just quoted a crappy piece of literature that is sooooo not realistic, and certainly not self consistent! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/532 "2014-02-25T14:43:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But in Galt’s Gulch the factory owners can conspire together to fire anyone who might try to organize any sort of a worker’s union, which means that a worker’s union will probably never form, while the owner’s union is strong and thriving. The _individual_ worker has absolutely no negotiation power because she/he is up against _all_ the owners. > > edited to add: Of course this applies only in the secret town of Galt’s Gulch, not the real world. But in GG, the workers can conspire together to not work for any company that does this. Or, they can band together and start their own factory. But, more likely one of the smarter factory owners is going to realize that it’s to his advantage to break with the conspiracy and have a much larger pool of workers to recruit from. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/533 "2014-02-25T14:47:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And as I have said, that would be a valid criticism - if the answer was found in the book. But it isn’t. So saying only people who have read the book are allowed to speculate on what the answer would be is nonsense. _looks back at the thread_ Allowed? I dinna thin’ that word means what you thin’ it means, to paraphrase from Princess Bride. 😛 I said nothing about ‘allowed’…merely pointed out that if people try and interject their opinions on the subject of a plot point in a specific book it might help a bit if they bothered reading it. If people want to look silly by doing so anyway though, well, that’s their lookout. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/534 "2014-02-25T14:49:26Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] I think the dissing of Rand is more the dissing of Rand’s modern day acolytes. See, tea party. [/QUOTE] Ah, so what you are saying here is it’s yet another hijacking threadshit? Yeah, I think I got that already. Or, to put it another way, who in this thread brought up Rand’s works in a modern day context a la the supposed tea party? Can you point me at the post number, because I must have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/535 "2014-02-25T14:51:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The message that “I” matters more than “we” seems to be the root of it. Do you have a cite that shows that near the number of people who have read Atlas Shrugged have read Anthem? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/536 "2014-02-25T15:05:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, I think it shows that even though you read _Atlas Shrugged_ and I didn’t, I understand what Rand wrote a lot more than you do. I see the flaws in Rand’s ideology that Rand herself was blind to. I’m not giving myself any special credit for this - lots of people have seen those flaws before me. Really? You really believe this? Perhaps you should not read medical books and try to graduate medical school. And the fact that you wrote this on a board devoted to fighting ignorance is absolutely astound. And friggin hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/537 "2014-02-25T15:15:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But in Galt’s Gulch the factory owners can conspire together to fire anyone who might try to organize any sort of a worker’s union, which means that a worker’s union will probably never form, while the owner’s union is strong and thriving. The _individual_ worker has absolutely no negotiation power because she/he is up against _all_ the owners. Let’s say this is true. What would happen to the business? They need productive workers, right? Disgruntled workers are not productive. One unproductive worker can be rather easily replaced, but what do you do if they are ALL disgruntled and unproductive. You can fire them all and hope for a better outcome with the new batch. And if they are happier and productive, then you’ve done the right thing and your problem is over. But if there is something about the deal/pay you offer people or the nature of the work, etc., that is at the root of the problem, you’ll just be right back at square one. But business need to remain operational and productive. So, some idiot owner who just keeps firing everyone will go out of business. The guy across the street who sees what’s going on can replace that business by offering workers a better deal. This is similar to what Thomas Edison did. He wanted a dependable source of labor so he offered a wage that was by far a better deal. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/538 "2014-02-25T15:38:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let’s say this is true. What would happen to the business? They need productive workers, right? Disgruntled workers are not productive. One unproductive worker can be rather easily replaced, but what do you do if they are ALL disgruntled and unproductive. You can fire them all and hope for a better outcome with the new batch. And if they are happier and productive, then you’ve done the right thing and your problem is over. But if there is something about the deal/pay you offer people or the nature of the work, etc., that is at the root of the problem, you’ll just be right back at square one. But business need to remain operational and productive. So, some idiot owner who just keeps firing everyone will go out of business. The guy across the street who sees what’s going on can replace that business by offering workers a better deal. This is similar to what Thomas Edison did. He wanted a dependable source of labor so he offered a wage that was by far a better deal. As I pointed out, they don’t have to fire any great number of workers to get their point across-just possible labor organizers. It’s not like the workers have anywhere else to go in the book…unless you are proposing that the disgruntled workers are free to leave for the outside world _and_ that none of them will talk about where they’ve been and what’s being done there. Of course, this begs the question of where all those factory workers came from in the first place. Who recruited all the workers needed for the factories/companies operating in the Gulch, and was as much care taken to pick the right workers as there was in picking the industrialists? I think it might take just a wee bit more than “Because…Freedom”, and those recruiters certainly didn’t have the time to wine and dine each worker to recruit them. Once again, I am talking _only_ about the situations in the book. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/539 "2014-02-25T15:56:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As I pointed out, they don’t have to fire any great number of workers to get their point across-just possible labor organizers. It’s not like the workers have anywhere else to go in the book…unless you are proposing that the disgruntled workers are free to leave for the outside world _and_ that none of them will talk about where they’ve been and what’s being done there. > Of course, this begs the question of where all those factory workers came from in the first place. Who recruited all the workers needed for the factories/companies operating in the Gulch, and was as much care taken to pick the right workers as there was in picking the industrialists? I think it might take just a wee bit more than “Because…Freedom”, and those recruiters certainly didn’t have the time to wine and dine each worker to recruit them. Once again, I am talking _only_ about the situations in the book. Who said it was only “because… freedom”? That’s something you cherry-picked and keep using because you think it’s clever, when it’s factually incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/540 "2014-02-25T16:09:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who said it was only “because… freedom”? That’s something you cherry-picked and keep using because you think it’s clever, when it’s factually incorrect. Then please enlighten us as to how an outside worker might be recruited to drop everything and move to Galt’s Gulch, and what would motivate a _disgruntled_ worker not to say a thing about Galt’s Gulch when(if) she/he leaves? Any elaboration beyond “No, _that_ isn’t right, either” would be greatly appreciated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=28)