# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/541 "2014-02-25T16:27:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then please enlighten us as to how an outside worker might be recruited to drop everything and move to Galt’s Gulch, and what would motivate a _disgruntled_ worker not to say a thing about Galt’s Gulch when(if) she/he leaves? Any elaboration beyond “No, _that_ isn’t right, either” would be greatly appreciated. Why wouldn’t a business owner talk to the best workers from his business outside of GG? I think that an attractive applicant would be very attracted to: “I give YOU the opportunity to work for ME, without the good intentions of politicians weighing down our relationship. I give you the opportunity to be rewarded directly for your worth, for your talents, skills and work ethic. I won’t put you in a box with a hundred other guys and have you progress only as they progress. You won’t be guaranteed the small raises that you get now due to you having to work within that box. In fact, you won’t be guaranteed any raise at all. But you will be guaranteed that I will pay you whatever you can demonstrate you are worth to me. Whether it be the $X we decide on now to start, or some multiple of X commensurate with the degree that you increase your worth to me.” I would be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/542 "2014-02-25T16:34:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then please enlighten us as to how an outside worker might be recruited to drop everything and move to Galt’s Gulch, and what would motivate a _disgruntled_ worker not to say a thing about Galt’s Gulch when(if) she/he leaves? Any elaboration beyond “No, _that_ isn’t right, either” would be greatly appreciated. You don’t know what a [dystopia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia) is and why people wouldn’t want to live in one? Did you miss the half dozen times I and others posted that in this thread? > [@](#): > > A dystopia is a community or society that is in some important way undesirable or frightening. It is the opposite of a utopia. Such societies appear in many artistic works, particularly in stories set in a future. Dystopias are often characterized by dehumanization,[1] totalitarian governments, environmental disaster,[2] or other characteristics associated with a cataclysmic decline in society. Dystopian societies appear in many sub-genres of fiction and are often used to draw attention to real-world issues regarding society, environment, politics, economics, religion, psychology, ethics, science, and/or technology, which if unaddressed could potentially lead to such a dystopia-like condition. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/543 "2014-02-25T16:48:22Z")
BTW, here’s the first couple paragraphs from wikipedia (emphasis added) about the book: > [@](#): > > Atlas Shrugged is a 1957 novel by Ayn Rand. Rand’s fourth and last novel, it was also her longest, and the one she considered to be her magnum opus in the realm of fiction writing.[4] Atlas Shrugged includes elements of science fiction,[5] mystery, and romance,[1][2][3] and it contains Rand’s most extensive statement of Objectivism in any of her works of fiction. > > The book explores a dystopian United States where many of society’s wealthiest citizens refuse to pay increasingly high taxes, reject government regulations and disappear, shutting down their vital industries. The disappearances evoke the imagery of what would happen if the mythological Atlas refused to continue to hold up the sky. They are led by John Galt. Galt describes the disappearances as “stopping the motor of the world” by withdrawing the people that drive society’s productivity. In their efforts, these characters hope to demonstrate that the destruction of the profit motive leads to the collapse of society. The title is a reference to Atlas, a Titan of Ancient Greek mythology, described in the novel as “the giant who holds the world on his shoulders”, although in Greek mythology he holds the sky, not the earth.[6] The significance of this reference is seen in a conversation between the characters Francisco d’Anconia and Hank Rearden, in which d’Anconia asks Rearden what sort of advice he would give Atlas upon seeing that “the greater [the titan’s] effort, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders”. With Rearden unable to answer, d’Anconia gives his own response: “To shrug”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/544 "2014-02-25T17:02:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You don’t know what a [dystopia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia) is and why people wouldn’t want to live in one? Did you miss the half dozen times I and others posted that in this thread? Did you miss the fact that I didn’t ask for the definition of “Distopia”, or that you didn’t bother to answer the questions I actually asked? I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/545 "2014-02-25T17:04:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > BTW, here’s the first couple paragraphs from wikipedia (emphasis added) about the book: And this answers the specific questions I asked…how? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/546 "2014-02-25T17:06:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did you miss the fact that I didn’t ask for the definition of “Distopia”, or that you didn’t bother to answer the questions I actually asked? > > I didn’t. Are you saying that didn’t answer the first question in your post? Really? > [@you](#): > > please enlighten us as to how an outside worker might be recruited to drop everything and move to Galt’s Gulch One thing at a time, amigo. One thing at a time. Does that or does that not answer the first part of your question? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/547 "2014-02-25T17:36:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wow! Turns out that Ayn Rand was kinda libertarian, just like all the really smart and profound people! Like that Canadian guy, Kid Rock! No, wait, that isn’t it… Janet Granite! No, no…Sam Shale! Closer, on the tip of my mind… You know, your snark is okay in small doses when it’s actually funny. For the life of me I can’t see any value or humor at all in what you just posted. I wasn’t describing my philosophy - I was describing hers. That they are very similar has to do with the fact that they both come from the same philosophical roots. Although Rand hated libertarians, her philosophy quite clearly has a lot in common with libertarianism. By the way, Rand was famously hostile to libertarians. But it wasn’t because their policy prescriptions were that different. Her stated reason for hating them was similar to why she hated National Review - she thought that they gave ‘her side’ a bad name by advocating for similar principles but for immoral reasons (in her mind). In the case of libertarians, she saw them as hedonists. National Review was hated because it mixed the message of freedom with religion. But she would have agreed with about 95% of what libertarians argued for, and probably 70% of what National Review advocated. The real reason was more likely that Rand had a controlling personality and she demanded 100% agreement in all things or you were her mortal enemy. She saved some of her worst criticism for people who were closest to her philosophy yet unwilling to accept everything she said. And before you go on to say that this is reflected in her philosophy or caused by it, consider the number of very poorly behaving liberals I can trot out. Let’s keep her personal life separate from the philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/548 "2014-02-25T17:45:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But in Galt’s Gulch the factory owners can conspire together to fire anyone who might try to organize any sort of a worker’s union, which means that a worker’s union will probably never form, while the owner’s union is strong and thriving. The _individual_ worker has absolutely no negotiation power because she/he is up against _all_ the owners. If the workers are all being mistreated, I would assume that soon there would be no workers, and the businesses would fail. The supposition in Rand’s novel is that the only people who would voluntarily move to Galt’s gulch are the kind of people who would live by the maxim “A fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay.” The workers wouldn’t tolerate abuse. Furthermore, if an employee is being enticed to leave society for a job in GG, he or she just might demand a contract specifying the relationship and terms. I know I would. And such contracts would be enforced. In Rand’s world, an employee might also not take a job in a ‘company town’ until and unless he or she had saved enough money to be able to afford to leave if it didn’t work out - because in Rand’s world such people take care of themselves and don’t throw themselves into situations where they need to be bailed out if things go badly. That would give them even more negotiating power. You don’t need a union to choose not to work for someone who isn’t treating you fairly. And if enough people feel that way, the employer will be forced to respond even if they don’t belong to a union. As I pointed out in my last message, only a small percentage of American workers are unionized, yet only about 1% of them make minimum wage. By what miracle to you assume the others managed to negotiate better salaries? Why do companies without unionized work forces still give raises and provide better than the minimum-regulated benefits? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/549 "2014-02-25T17:51:34Z")
I quite agree, **Sam** , that her “philosophy” shares a lot with libertarianism, especially in that both are rather silly. I also agree that she most likely despised libertarianism due to her own desire to think of herself as boldly original, born full from the forehead of the god Reason. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/550 "2014-02-25T17:59:01Z")
Czarcasm: how many disgruntled workers were there in GG? How would it advance the theme or plot to have one who ratted the place out? As to what would have happened… I don’t know. I can imagine several scenarios, some which would not have changed the message at all and some that would have changed it significantly. But I can’t see why she would have introduced that ot element unless she wanted to write a different book with a different theme. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/551 "2014-02-25T18:25:40Z")
**John** , that wiki cite is sorely in need of your correction! This > [@](#): > > …where many of society’s wealthiest citizens refuse to pay increasingly high taxes, reject government regulations… certainly seems to support the contention that Galt’s Utopia was mostly about the wealthy and powerful, and it entirely neglects the vast numbers of working class people surging towards GG in order to escape the grasp of “moochers”. Probably didn’t read the book, yeah, that must be it. You should offer several of the many, many passages that refute this, as clearly whoever wrote this wiki didn’t read the book. You have, and are therefore eminently qualified. I have as well, but my memory isn’t what it used to be. Or maybe it is, and I just don’t remember. At any rate, I am advised by an expert that “obviously” I _haven’t_ read it, so I will defer to his judgement. Which leaves you. Get right on that, won’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/552 "2014-02-25T18:51:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **John** , that wiki cite is sorely in need of your correction! This > > certainly seems to support the contention that Galt’s Utopia was mostly about the wealthy and powerful, and it entirely neglects the vast numbers of working class people surging towards GG in order to escape the grasp of “moochers”. Probably didn’t read the book, yeah, that must be it. > > You should offer several of the many, many passages that refute this, as clearly whoever wrote this wiki didn’t read the book. You have, and are therefore eminently qualified. I have as well, but my memory isn’t what it used to be. Or maybe it is, and I just don’t remember. At any rate, I am advised by an expert that “obviously” I _haven’t_ read it, so I will defer to his judgement. Which leaves you. > > Get right on that, won’t you? It’s been decades since I read the book, but my recollection is that it very explicitly describes a number of people who would not be considered ‘rich and powerful’ who join Galt’s Gulch. I seem to recall Dagny bemoaning the loss of some of her best rail workers before she knew where everyone was going. Again, Rand is very clearly not about just protecting the rich and powerful. She wasn’t looking through the lens of rich vs poor. I know that’s hard for some to get because that’s the only lens they’ve got, but it’s true. Some of the worst villians in her books are rich and powerful men and women, and some of the most uplifting characters are simple workers. You seem to be confused as to who the ‘moochers’ are, too. You seem to think ‘moochers’ are poor people who want what the rich have. In fact, to Rand a ‘moocher’ is simply someone who is demanding that the productive capabilities of others be shared with him through force for his own gain. Whether it be the architect who steals ideas from others, a businessman who can’t compete in the market and therefore goes to the government to ‘level the playing field’, or a union boss who lobbies for government to supply force to help him achieve what he can’t get people to agree to voluntarily. Most of the struggles in her books are _between_ the rich and powerful - not the rich exploiting the poor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/553 "2014-02-25T19:04:46Z")
Ah! So the CEO who takes a bigger share of the profits of the enterprise is also a “moocher”? Exploiting the labor of the workers who make $30,000/year while he pulls down $30 million? After all, there is no reason the workers should be forced to support the lifestyle of the CEO/moocher, any more than he is obliged to support the idle and feckless. Upward charity is no better than downward, and altruism be damned! Might you offer some passages to support this? Which would have the added advantage of proving that you _have_ read the book, the “gold standard” for this thread. And of course the struggle would mostly be among the rich and powerful, they are the only ones with anything to contend _with_, nobody else has any ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/554 "2014-02-25T19:13:41Z")
And this, afterthought > [@](#): > > …Rand is very clearly not about just protecting the rich and powerful. … That’s nice. But then the people who arrive rich and powerful remain so, yes? Is there some mechanism to prevent this? And why would the rich and powerful consent to such a thing? If they won’t do it for Jesus, why would they do it for Galt? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/555 "2014-02-25T19:18:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And this, afterthought > > That’s nice. But then the people who arrive rich and powerful remain so, yes? Is there some mechanism to prevent this? And why would the rich and powerful consent to such a thing? If they won’t do it for Jesus, why would they do it for Galt? Remember that 3+ hour speech I linked to? That speech was supposedly given to them first, and that speech is supposedly what convinced them to join up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/556 "2014-02-25T19:24:10Z")
“OK, OK, I’ll sign _anything_! Just shut the fuck up, for God’s sake, and give me back my _Amos and Andy!_” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/557 "2014-02-25T19:34:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember that 3+ hour speech I linked to? That speech was supposedly given to them first, and that speech is supposedly what convinced them to join up. Not that it really matters, but my curiosity bump is itching. Do you mean that the speech was “previewed” for a select audience before it was broadcast? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/558 "2014-02-25T19:40:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not that it really matters, but my curiosity bump is itching. Do you mean that the speech was “previewed” for a select audience before it was broadcast? During the beginning of the speech Galt makes the claim that the reason those industrialists signed up with him is because they heard the same speech he is now broadcasting. Whether those industrialists were forced to listen to the whole damn thing before they were allowed to sign on the dotted line isn’t brought up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/559 "2014-02-25T19:49:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **John** , that wiki cite is sorely in need of your correction! This > > certainly seems to support the contention that Galt’s Utopia was mostly about the wealthy and powerful, and it entirely neglects the vast numbers of working class people surging towards GG in order to escape the grasp of “moochers”. Probably didn’t read the book, yeah, that must be it. > > You should offer several of the many, many passages that refute this, as clearly whoever wrote this wiki didn’t read the book. You have, and are therefore eminently qualified. I have as well, but my memory isn’t what it used to be. Or maybe it is, and I just don’t remember. At any rate, I am advised by an expert that “obviously” I _haven’t_ read it, so I will defer to his judgement. Which leaves you. > > Get right on that, won’t you? Meh. It’s certainly true that Ayn Rand didn’t focus on the “common man”, preferring to write more about the exceptional ones. Not realistic, I know, but that doesn’t bother me as it seems to bother you. But there are people in GG who are doing what would be called non-creative tasks. And most of them probably aspired to do more than that, eventually. As for the wikipedia article, I think it’s fine the way it is, especially since (if you dig a little deeper and go to the link about the characters): > [@](#): > > **Eddie Willers** > > Edwin “Eddie” Willers is the Special Assistant to the Vice-President in Charge of Operations at Taggart Transcontinental. He grew up with Dagny Taggart. His father and grandfather worked for the Taggarts, and he followed in their footsteps. He is completely loyal to Dagny and to Taggart Transcontinental. He is also secretly in love with Dagny. Willers is generally assumed to represent the common man: someone who does not possess the Promethean creative ability of The Strikers, but matches them in moral courage and is capable of appreciating and making use of their creations. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/560 "2014-02-25T19:49:37Z")
By the way, this site offers support for the notion that labor unions would be free to organize and function. > **[Labor Unions, The Atlas Society | Ayn Rand, Objectivism, Atlas Shrugged](https://www.atlassociety.org/post/labor-unions)** > > An ideal Objectivist society would be one where there would be maximum individual freedom, and minimum governmental functions, primary among They are rather coy about what constitutes forbidden “force”, regarding it as physical force rather than considering economic force, but that is a small enough question to overlook. Since none of this is ever going to happen anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=29)