# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/581 "2014-02-25T22:08:03Z")
That explains why they would flock to such an opportunity, to prove themselves worthy! What could possibly go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/582 "2014-02-25T22:13:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That explains why they would flock to such an opportunity, to prove themselves worthy! What could possibly go wrong? You’re right. Not realistic at all. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/583 "2014-02-25T22:26:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not sure why you would assume that. Most people arrive in GG penniless, since outside currency is not worth anything. A factory owner was just as likely as not to be in debt to someone like Midas Mulligan to get things started. Without a working factory, they would be worth negative money, not zero money. OK, I really need to shut up now and probably shouldn’t have posted in the first place since I haven’t done the reading\*. I’m willing to accept that we shouldn’t fight the hypothetical, and if Galt is smart enough to create an engine that disobeys the laws of physics, he is smart enough to only invite exactly enough people so that the labor pool exactly matches the amount of work that needs to be done and thus individuals can’t be readily replaced off the street, eliminating the possibility of an underclass. Of course this is of limited relevance to the real world where we can’t/won’t deport or vaporize the unproductive members of society (not to mention what the loss of so many consumers would do to our Economy). - If there was ever the need to be able to beam knowledge into my brain this is it. I would very much like to discuss Rand’s work knowledgeably but can’t justify the cranial damage that I would suffer from the repeated blows of my head against the wall I would likely suffer should I try to read it from cover to cover. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/584 "2014-02-25T22:33:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. Not realistic at all. I can’t imagine why you think that is some sort of trump card, but if it makes you happy, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/585 "2014-02-25T22:40:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can’t imagine why you think that is some sort of trump card, but if it makes you happy, knock yourself out. Can you imagine trying to use that excuse for poor storytelling at any writers workshop? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/586 "2014-02-25T22:48:26Z")
I realize I’m violating my promise to shut up, but looking back over Sam’s post the following confused me and I was hoping that Sam could clarify what he meant > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > For example, not choosing to work there until they had enough savings to buy a ticket out if the situation became intolerable. Or, they could insist on contract terms that protect them from such exploitation. The people I am talking about are those who have no means of support and will be unable to support themselves or their families unless they find employment. By definition they are not in a position to make any demands regarding the contract terms, nor any means to acquire savings. I am willing to accept that they may be proud enough to starve rather than be exploited, and that if enough follow this route eventually they will be able to reduce the surplus labor to raise the prevailing wage to an acceptable level. but I’m not clear how not working lets you save money or improves your ability to negotiate a contract. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/587 "2014-02-25T22:56:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can’t imagine why you think that is some sort of trump card, but if it makes you happy, knock yourself out. It’s not a trump card. It only works when you criticize it for not being realistic, which is what you did. But if you’d like me to call you on the “what part of dystopia do you not understand” fallacy, we can go with that one, too. Take your pick. Either or both. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/588 "2014-02-25T23:11:07Z")
[Trump](https://www.google.com/search?q=Donald+Trump+card&tbm=isch&imgil=oM4XYJmfXcty-M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTFMtHxqzI7A1om0qqLWj4FA_UKnGOx6jqv4KTyjNbLjPUPU5_vcQ%253B172%253B250%253BcUktHEE-g2CfCM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwettechdesigns.com%25252Fcategory%25252Fmedia%25252F&source=iu&usg=__XHs5RQvez5Bh-oamFx-5vZm8inM%3D&sa=X&ei=kCINU4X2EqT4yQHAhYCADQ&ved=0CCoQ9QEwAA&biw=1920&bih=1106#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=oM4XYJmfXcty-M%253A%3BcUktHEE-g2CfCM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwettechdesigns.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2011%252F04%252FTrumpCard.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwettechdesigns.com%252Fcategory%252Fmedia%252F%3B172%3B250) card…for 'luci. [QUOTE=Czarcasm] Can you imagine trying to use that excuse for poor storytelling at any writers workshop? [/QUOTE] Can you imagine telling the workshop that you hadn’t read the story, but here are all of the plot holes you think are in it (while being laughably wrong on all counts)? Man, that would make your face red…well, ok, obviously not to the folks in this thread, but it sure would be embarrassing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/589 "2014-02-25T23:22:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I’m not seeing Krugman in the same “crazy” category as Rand. She was a control freak’s control freak. Krugman was a better economist than political hack, and it’s a shame he’s more of the latter than the former these days, but I don’t see him as crazy. I shouldn’t have said ‘crazy’. I basically meant he seems to be a very angry single-tracked ideologue these days who has nothing but disdain for anyone who disagrees with him - even his fellow economists. He dismisses research that disagrees with him with a sneer and a flourish, like Rand did. I guess ‘ideologue’ would be a better description than crazy and intolerant. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/590 "2014-02-25T23:33:17Z")
You can either write a polemic or a work of art. If you are writing, say, _Pilgrim’s Progress_, and your characters are little more than cardboard cutouts moved about to deliver preaching points, fine, so be it. Or if you are writing a work of art, meant to enlighten and illuminate something about human character, that’s another altogether. Obviously, it would be very hard to do both, I think Vonnegut did it very well in _God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater_, as sharp as satire on inherited wealth as has ever been written, and a very _human_ book. Joe Bob **'luc** says “Check it out!” But if you strive for both, you can fail on both, or fail on either. Not quite cricket to dodge by going back and forth. As a work of art, _Atlas_ is appallingly bad, it grossly violates every guideline, with unreal characters and absurd situations. As a political and economic polemic, its just as bad, it lacks rigorous thinking and doesn’t have that strong a point to make. So, altruism is not strictly rational. This is news? Kinda like Marx discovering class warfare as a major factor in history, that isn’t news either. His elevation of class warfare as the single most important factor is his major premise, and he’s wrong. Worse than his faulty diagnosis is his faulty cure. No, human beings will not substitute class identity for clan, kin, tribe and nation. And **XT** , you have already declared triumph and victory. Several times. if you have to keep doing it, gets kinda unconvincing, don’t you think? Or don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/591 "2014-02-25T23:33:59Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I realize I’m violating my promise to shut up, but looking back over Sam’s post the following confused me and I was hoping that Sam could clarify what he meant > > The people I am talking about are those who have no means of support and will be unable to support themselves or their families unless they find employment. By definition they are not in a position to make any demands regarding the contract terms, nor any means to acquire savings. If they have no means of support, they would not be able to find their way to Galt’s Gulch in the first place. And if they don’t have an offer of employment in hand, they aren’t going there because there are no safety nets and no one is going to look after them. The larger point is that people behave differently in a society that has no social safety net provided by government. They create their own safety nets. Large families were the norm in the past in part because large families were insurance against sickness, loss of a job, or other hardships. Mutual aid societies existed to provide further support. Not only that, but people had a culture of saving. My grandparents lived through the depression, and the experience taught them to rely on no one but themselves, and they always had enough savings to see them through hard times, even if it meant living like paupers while they saved. When a child moved away, my grandparents would put aside enough money to buy them a bus ticket home if their plans went awry, precisely so they couldn’t be exploited by being put in a situation they couldn’t escape from. > [@](#): > > I am willing to accept that they may be proud enough to starve rather than be exploited, and that if enough follow this route eventually they will be able to reduce the surplus labor to raise the prevailing wage to an acceptable level. but I’m not clear how not working lets you save money or improves your ability to negotiate a contract. ‘Surplus labor’? In Rand’s world there would not be surplus labor in Galt’s Gulch, because people without productive work would not stay there unless they were self-supporting, or if someone there valued them enough to support them. And without regulations mandating minimum wages, people out of work could simply lower their price to whatever the market clearing level is for the labor they are capable of doing and which is in demand. A ‘surplus’ of anything is the result of price controls. Otherwise, everything has a price and will clear the market if the price is allowed to float to the market clearing level. If that price is so low that it’s unacceptable to the worker, that’s a signal that he has to find work elsewhere or improve his skills. Again, that’s in Rand’s simplistic world. Real life is more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/592 "2014-02-25T23:47:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You can either write a polemic or a work of art. If you are writing, say, _Pilgrim’s Progress_, and your characters are little more than cardboard cutouts moved about to deliver preaching points, fine, so be it. Or if you are writing a work of art, meant to enlighten and illuminate something about human character, that’s another altogether. Obviously, it would be very hard to do both, I think Vonnegut did it very well in _God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater_, as sharp as satire on inherited wealth as has ever been written, and a very _human_ book. Joe Bob **'luc** says “Check it out!” > > But if you strive for both, you can fail on both, or fail on either. Not quite cricket to dodge by going back and forth. > > As a work of art, _Atlas_ is appallingly bad, it grossly violates every guideline, with unreal characters and absurd situations. As a political and economic polemic, its just as bad, it lacks rigorous thinking and doesn’t have that strong a point to make. So, altruism is not strictly rational. This is news? Kinda like Marx discovering class warfare as a major factor in history, that isn’t news either. His elevation of class warfare as the single most important factor is his major premise, and he’s wrong. Worse than his faulty diagnosis is his faulty cure. No, human beings will not substitute class identity for clan, kin, tribe and nation. Well, there you go. You see, it is possible to criticize _Atlas_ beyond “not realistic”. I’ll not fault you for sprinkling a little of that in there since you didn’t stick only to “not realistic”. So, let’s begin: Can you tell me what these “guidelines” are that are violated, and who decides what they are? I’m actually pretty shocked that you are are criticizing someone for not keeping their crayons inside the lines, but there you have it. A criticism that goes beyond “not realistic”, so progress has been made by the Pilgrim at last! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/593 "2014-02-26T00:18:02Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] And XT, you have already declared triumph and victory. Several times. if you have to keep doing it, gets kinda unconvincing, don’t you think? Or don’t you? [/QUOTE] Oh 'luci, you are a gem. I don’t need to declare victory man…nor do I need for you or anyone else to acknowledge it. As to what I’m doing, it’s called ‘mocking’, and if you could but see you would see me howling with laughter throughout much of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/594 "2014-02-26T00:21:21Z")
In the interest of looking at what the experts say, here is the blurb from wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Atlas Shrugged debuted on The New York Times Bestseller List at #13 three days after its publication. It peaked at #3 on December 8, 1957, and was on the list for 22 consecutive weeks.[9] > > Atlas Shrugged was generally disliked by critics, despite being a popular success. The book was dismissed by some as an “homage to greed”, while author Gore Vidal described its philosophy as “nearly perfect in its immorality”.[10] Helen Beal Woodward, reviewing Atlas Shrugged for The Saturday Review, opined that the novel was written with “dazzling virtuosity” but that it was “shot through with hatred”.[38] This was echoed by Granville Hicks, writing for The New York Times Book Review, who also stated that the book was “written out of hate”.[39] The reviewer for Time magazine asked: “Is it a novel? Is it a nightmare? Is it Superman – in the comic strip or the Nietzschean version?”[40] In the magazine National Review, Whittaker Chambers called Atlas Shrugged “sophomoric” and “remarkably silly”, and said it “can be called a novel only by devaluing the term”.[41] Chambers argued against the novel’s implicit endorsement of atheism, whereby “Randian man, like Marxian man is made the center of a godless world”.[41] Chambers also wrote that the implicit message of the novel is akin to “Hitler’s National Socialism and Stalin’s brand of Communism” (“To a gas chamber — go!”).[41] > > The negative reviews produced responses from some of Rand’s admirers, including a letter by Alan Greenspan to The New York Times Book Review, in which he responded to Hicks’ claim that “the book was written out of hate” by saying, “… Atlas Shrugged is a celebration of life and happiness. Justice is unrelenting. Creative individuals and undeviating purpose and rationality achieve joy and fulfillment. Parasites who persistently avoid either purpose or reason perish as they should.”[42] Greenspan had read unpublished drafts of the work in Rand’s salon at least three years earlier.[43] In an unpublished[44] letter to the National Review, Leonard Peikoff wrote, “… Mr. Chambers is an ex-Communist. He has attacked Atlas Shrugged in the best tradition of the Communists — by lies, smears, and cowardly misrepresentations. Mr. Chambers may have changed a few of his political views; he has not changed the method of intellectual analysis and evaluation of the Party to which he belonged.” > > Positive reviews appeared in a number of publications. Richard McLaughlin, reviewing the novel for The American Mercury, compared it to Uncle Tom’s Cabin in importance.[45] Well-known journalist and book reviewer John Chamberlain, writing in The New York Herald Tribune, found Atlas Shrugged satisfying on many levels: science fiction, a “Dostoevsky” detective story and, most importantly, a “profound political parable”.[46] However, Rand scholar Mimi Reisel Gladstein later wrote that “reviewers seemed to vie with each other in a contest to devise the cleverest put-downs”; one called it “execrable claptrap”, while another said it showed “remorseless hectoring and prolixity”.[47] So, most critics didn’t like it, but seems that they, like a lot of folks here, are more into condemning the message rather than the medium. Anyway, I don’t claim to be a judge of great literature. I liked a lot of the classic stuff, but I couldn’t get past page 10 of _The Brothers Karamazov_. I enjoyed the lightweight stuff put out by Uris and Michener, and I did enjoy Rand’s fiction, too. As I said earlier, I liked _Fountainhead_ better than _Atlas_ as I found the latter to be more preachy than I prefer. I’ve recommended _The Fountainhead_ to a number of my friends, and all of them liked it. I know when they did the film version (terrible film, btw), the leading actresses of the day were fighting over who would play Dominique. Whatever you say, her work is influential and has become a part of the American landscape. Don’t read it if it doesn’t interest you, but it helps to be conversant in American culture just as reading The Bible does. I enjoy reading The Bible at times, and I’m an atheist. And, you’d never get very far in Jeopardy without a working knowledge of that book! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/595 "2014-02-26T02:52:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …So, most critics didn’t like it, but seems that they, like a lot of folks here, are more into condemning the message rather than the medium. … Gosh, **John** , did you read them? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/596 "2014-02-26T02:54:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gosh, **John** , did you read them? Gosh, luc. Did you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/597 "2014-02-26T04:00:00Z")
Actually, **luc** , I’m a lot more interested about how an old hippie like you is so concerned about “guidelines”. Never would have suspected that. Next thing you know, we’ll be trashing on ol’ Ayn for wearing white after Labor Day! As for me, I’m not so worried about whether it’s great literature or not. All I care about is whether or not I like it. I can accept that you don’t like it. Personal taste and all being completely subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/598 "2014-02-26T04:02:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But in GG, the workers can conspire together to not work for any company that does this. Or, they can band together and start their own factory. > > But, more likely one of the smarter factory owners is going to realize that it’s to his advantage to break with the conspiracy and have a much larger pool of workers to recruit from. So the owners of capital conspire to quash unions but one enlightened owner of capital decides that there would be an advantage to him to allow labor to organize? Noone is saying that everyone would be getting starvation wages, there will still be a demand supply curve for labor but the price labor is paid will depend on a bidding war between employers because the negotiating power of the individual laborer will be virtually non-existant. And for most workers (like garbagemen) the bidding war is not likely to be very heated. > [@XT](#): > > Ah, so what you are saying here is it’s yet another hijacking threadshit? Yeah, I think I got that already. Or, to put it another way, who in this thread brought up Rand’s works in a modern day context a la the supposed tea party? Can you point me at the post number, because I must have missed it. There are over 500 posts, do your own search but i suspect the connection between Rand and the crazy folks that run the Republican party these days was made pretty early. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If the workers are all being mistreated, I would assume that soon there would be no workers, and the businesses would fail. The supposition in Rand’s novel is that the only people who would voluntarily move to Galt’s gulch are the kind of people who would live by the maxim “A fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay.” The workers wouldn’t tolerate abuse. They have to eat. And there is a lot of daylight between abuse and fair pay. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, if an employee is being enticed to leave society for a job in GG, he or she just might demand a contract specifying the relationship and terms. I know I would. And such contracts would be enforced. Is that the way you remember how people left for Galt’s Gulch? They got assurances before going? > [@](#): > > You don’t need a union to choose not to work for someone who isn’t treating you fairly. And if enough people feel that way, the employer will be forced to respond even if they don’t belong to a union. have you ever heard of countervailing power? > [@](#): > > As I pointed out in my last message, only a small percentage of American workers are unionized, yet only about 1% of them make minimum wage. By what miracle to you assume the others managed to negotiate better salaries? Why do companies without unionized work forces still give raises and provide better than the minimum-regulated benefits? They didn’t negotiate shit. There is still a demand for labor. The employers decide how much they are going to bid for labor and the bidding is not affected by an individual’s decision to negotiate in almost all cases. There is no bilateral maximization, the maximization in unilateral and the laborer can only choose from the options held forth by the various employers. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/599 "2014-02-26T04:24:35Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] There are over 500 posts, do your own search but i suspect the connection between Rand and the crazy folks that run the Republican party these days was made pretty early. [/QUOTE] So, that would be a ‘yes’ on the threadshit question. As noted, I got that already. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/600 "2014-02-26T04:45:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the owners of capital conspire to quash unions but one enlightened owner of capital decides that there would be an advantage to him to allow labor to organize? Who said “enlightened”? Not me. Those are your words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=31)