# Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569 "2014-02-17T23:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/621 "2014-02-27T16:05:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s the thing-- you can’t count on [the Sanction of the Victim.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_shrugged#Sanction_of_the_victim) You don’t get to claim someone stabs you in the back when you’re sucking the blood out of them. A rational person would not expect to be able to do that indefinitely. The industrialist cannot claim to be the victim unless he also claims that he thought he could have gotten as far as he had even without such political assistance. The industrialist is no hero for quitting at the top of his game(leaving real people in destitution). None of the industrialists recruited by Galt were wide-eyed innocents, but they _did_ have something he needed that a more innocent group of business starters who have yet to be corrupted by the system didn’t possess-vast resources. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/622 "2014-02-27T16:12:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It could be rational, short term, to try and live the life of a moocher, but it was not a rational long terms strategy _in the book_. Whether it is IRL is another matter. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/623 "2014-02-27T16:13:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The industrialist cannot claim to be the victim unless he also claims that he thought he could have gotten as far as he had even without such political assistance. You have a strange idea of what “assistance” is. Do you think the politicians in the book were “assisting” the industrialists? For instance, when Reardon’s patent was taken away from him, was that “assistance”? > [@](#): > > The industrialist is no hero for quitting at the top of his game(leaving real people in destitution). None of the industrialists recruited by Galt were wide-eyed innocents, but they _did_ have something he needed that a more innocent group of business starters who have yet to be corrupted by the system didn’t possess-vast resources. Per the premise of the book, all they did was hasten a process _that was already happening_. No one was trying to be a “hero”, nor would an Objectivist want to be one. They were looking out for their own self-interest. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/624 "2014-02-27T16:30:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Per the premise of the book, all they did was hasten a process _that was already happening_. No one was trying to be a “hero”, nor would an Objectivist want to be one. They were looking out for their own self-interest. And I believe such open declaration of self-interest would be the downfall of Galt’s Gulch in the long run. The workers who abruptly lost their jobs when the factories closed down will be less likely to want to work for those same industrialists in Galt’s Gulch because a boss that would screw you over like that once would likely do it again if he got the urge to pull up stakes yet again if the mood hits. The trust has been broken, and no 3+ hour speech is going to fix that problem…especially if said speech attacks the lifestyles, ethics, beliefs and religions of said common workers. The book version of the speech is o.k., but if you read the book, then when you get to that part of the story stop and listen to a reading of the whole speech, you will better understand the air of superiority that Galt projects towards those he wishes to convert. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/625 "2014-02-27T17:02:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I believe such open declaration of self-interest would be the downfall of Galt’s Gulch in the long run. The workers who abruptly lost their jobs when the factories closed down will be less likely to want to work for those same industrialists in Galt’s Gulch because a boss that would screw you over like that once would likely do it again if he got the urge to pull up stakes yet again if the mood hits. The trust has been broken, and no 3+ hour speech is going to fix that problem…especially if said speech attacks the lifestyles, ethics, beliefs and religions of said common workers. The book version of the speech is o.k., but if you read the book, then when you get to that part of the story stop and listen to a reading of the whole speech, you will better understand the air of superiority that Galt projects towards those he wishes to convert. The workers who would be attracted to GG would not agree with your concept of “trust”. They wouldn’t have felt “screwed over” because they would understand exactly why the industrialists left and they would agree with them. They wouldn’t feel entitled to a job-- that’s a moocher mentality. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/626 "2014-02-27T17:16:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The workers who would be attracted to GG would not agree with your concept of “trust”. They wouldn’t have felt “screwed over” because they would understand exactly why the industrialists left and they would agree with them. They wouldn’t feel entitled to a job-- that’s a moocher mentality. Pretty much, yeah. In the context of the book, Czarcasm seems to be saying that thoes industrialists were bound to stay and continue working for the sake of their workers…which is, again in the context of the book, a form of slavery. Sure, some of the workers in those plants that were seized by the government, who installed their own industrialists and ultimately failed and thus lost their jobs, despite those appointed industrialists being all sympathetic to the plight of the workers and peasants would have been upset. After all, the guys who were keeping them in beer and skittles had left, and the new guys had failed, despite that noted sympathy, leaving them out of work in an increasingly ramshackle world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/627 "2014-02-27T18:40:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, I’ve never actually seen a Picasso painting, but this is wrong. > > Picasso simply couldn’t paint, cubism can’t exist in the real world, therefore his work has no value. > > Regards, > Shodan This is a remarkably perceptive and intelligent comment upon one of the biggest artistic frauds and \*poseurs \* of the 20th Century! Only Gertrude Stein could rival his pretension of genius, and he was wildly successful while she struggled to be a footnote. Alas, it is sarcasm. What a pity. So close, and yet, so far… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/628 "2014-02-27T20:04:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, I’ve never actually seen a Picasso painting, but this is wrong. > > Picasso simply couldn’t paint, cubism can’t exist in the real world, therefore his work has no value. > > Regards, > Shodan Perhaps we should change the thread title to: **Who collects the Picasso paintings in Galt’s Gulch?** ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/629 "2014-02-27T20:18:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps we should change the thread title to: **Who collects the Picasso paintings in Galt’s Gulch?** I think the thread should be ‘who realizes this is a work of fiction?’ perhaps with a bonus for ‘who has read the book?’. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/630 "2014-02-27T20:28:03Z")
In that case, **Sam** has you beat hollow, having read all of her works, several times over. To be fair, it should be noted that\*\* Sam\*\* is Canadian, and they have a long standing tradition of stoical suffering and perseverance in the face of deadly boredom. Like Minnesotans, only whiter. I’ve been told that Canadians will tap a maple tree for syrup, and pull up a chair to watch. I’m not at all sure I believe that. But anyone who could do what he has done has a capacity to endure leaden and pretentious prose that is astounding. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/631 "2014-02-27T20:54:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps we should change the thread title to: **Who collects the Picasso paintings in Galt’s Gulch?** Might as well. No amount of explanation about garbage collection seems to matter. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/632 "2014-02-27T21:02:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Might as well. No amount of explanation about garbage collection seems to matter. > > Regards, > Shodan if you are trying to point out that this thread is supposed to be about garbage collection in Galt’s Gulch, I will point out that you have discussed much more than that in this thread…and I don’t recall any post from you stating that you were being forced to talk about all the offshoots this thread has taken. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/633 "2014-02-28T03:55:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who said “enlightened”? Not me. Those are your words. Ah so an employer pursuing his self interest is going to turn his back on collusion with other employers and break with the cartel to pay more for labor in the hopes that this will lead to some lasting advantage in recruiting labor? What businessman wouldn’t think that the cartel of employers would immediately match his price for labor thereby increasing the costs for ALL employers. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/634 "2014-02-28T04:50:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ah so an employer pursuing his self interest is going to turn his back on collusion with other employers and break with the cartel to pay more for labor in the hopes that this will lead to some lasting advantage in recruiting labor? What businessman wouldn’t think that the cartel of employers would immediately match his price for labor thereby increasing the costs for ALL employers. Would you? Wow. You got all of that from my questioning of your use of “enlightened”? Day-um! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/635 "2014-02-28T05:29:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. You got all of that from my questioning of your use of “enlightened”? Day-um! I was clearing up my response to your comment: > [@](#): > > But, more likely one of the smarter factory owners is going to realize that it’s to his advantage to break with the conspiracy and have a much larger pool of workers to recruit from. Which was in response to how laborers would overcome the natural advantages employers have in the labor market especially if employers are allowed to conspire and suppress unions. Just like we know what happens in a world where charity is left to private parties even with religious institutions (could you imagine what the human history of charity would look like without religious institutions, the other bane of Rand’s world?), we know what the labor markets would look like without labor laws that counteract the natural advantages of employers and puts the government’s thumb on labor’s side of the scale. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/636 "2014-02-28T05:52:52Z")
Not to threadshit, but how does the theme of _Atlas Shrugged_ compare to that of [the tale of Golgafrincham](http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrincham)? I sense there is an underlying similarity of a sort, but that the actual readability and entertainment value of the former is not comparable to the latter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/637 "2014-02-28T05:59:21Z")
**Hitchhiker** is whimsical. Ayn Rand is as whimsical as a slab of granite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/638 "2014-02-28T14:16:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I was clearing up my response to your comment: > > Which was in response to how laborers would overcome the natural advantages employers have in the labor market especially if employers are allowed to conspire and suppress unions. > > Just like we know what happens in a world where charity is left to private parties even with religious institutions (could you imagine what the human history of charity would look like without religious institutions, the other bane of Rand’s world?), we know what the labor markets would look like without labor laws that counteract the natural advantages of employers and puts the government’s thumb on labor’s side of the scale. Oh, I see. You’re saying it’s not realistic. We know that. It’s not supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/639 "2014-02-28T15:45:04Z")
And that’s a very important distinction, because so many people think that it is a political and social polemic in fictional form, meant to lecture, scold and instruct us in how things oughta be. But its not! Therefore, it is not bound by any such restrictions as making sense! Whew! What a relief! And we need not concern ourselves that anthropology shows that our particular variety of monkey is inherently and naturally collectivist, and that inherent collectivism forms the basis of the thing she likes to scorn as “altruism”. Because that’s fact, and fact doesn’t matter to art! Maybe a disclaimer should be added? Like “The following is a work of fiction, and any resemblance to reality.either current or prospective, is expressly denied and what may appear to be a stern lecture on how things oughta be is, in fact, unicorn dust, and should not be accorded any more serious attention than the musings of Big Bird or the uni-polar despair of Eeyore.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569/640 "2014-02-28T19:11:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And that’s a very important distinction, because so many people think that it is a political and social polemic in fictional form, meant to lecture, scold and instruct us in how things oughta be. But its not! Therefore, it is not bound by any such restrictions as making sense! Whew! What a relief! Yes, it is meant to show us how things ought to be, according to AR and her philosophy. But that is different from the way things are, _n’est pas_? > [@](#): > > And we need not concern ourselves that anthropology shows that our particular variety of monkey is inherently and naturally collectivist, and that inherent collectivism forms the basis of the thing she likes to scorn as “altruism”. Because that’s fact, and fact doesn’t matter to art! We can concern ourselves with that all we want, but those are 2 different conversations: 1. How do things work in an Objectivist society? 2. Is an Objectivist society compatible with humans as know them to be? The OP is asking about #1. And much of what has been posted here is that plot of the book has holes in it because things don’t work like that in the real world, which is topic #2. That is not to say this thread can’t or shouldn’t veer into topic #2, but I think posters should be clear on which discussion they are having. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-collects-the-trash-in-galts-gulch/681569.md?page=33)