# Who could use the Ring to successfully overthrow Sauron? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [February 8, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647 "2020-02-08T22:28:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/21 "2020-02-10T17:40:50Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I believe that’s incorrect. Gandalf and Galadriel both seem to think that they can destroy Sauron and rule in his place; otherwise it wouldn’t be a temptation to try. > > Tolkien’s letter (quoted in this link) [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-BeatSauron](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-BeatSauron) says that defeat by Gandalf using the Ring would be “for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring” (i.e. complete destruction of the Ring). The Ring would then corrupt Gandalf from its innate evil, but that doesn’t do Sauron any good. Annoying typo. Please replace with "Tolkien’s letter (quoted in this link) [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-BeatSauron](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-BeatSauron) says that defeat by Gandalf using the Ring would be “for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring” (i.e. complete destruction of the **Sauron** ). The Ring would then corrupt Gandalf from its innate evil, but that doesn’t do Sauron any good. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/22 "2020-02-10T18:17:24Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Yep. Sauron is the Dark Lord whom all dread and fear. Galadriel would be the Lady whom all would love and despair. I got no problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/23 "2020-02-10T18:49:50Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Annoying typo. Please replace with > > "Tolkien’s letter (quoted in this link) [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-BeatSauron](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-BeatSauron) says that defeat by Gandalf using the Ring would be “for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring” (i.e. complete destruction of the **Sauron** ). The Ring would then corrupt Gandalf from its innate evil, but that doesn’t do Sauron any good. Good point. Here’s the relevant portion from the letter (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > **Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him** – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the ‘Mirror of Galadriel’, 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. \*\*If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. \*\*But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; **for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.** But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. So Tolkien gives pretty good answer. A) You probably need another Maiar to master the ring. B) You either defeat Sauron by destroying the ring or **mastering** the ring (which is nigh impossible to do). ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/24 "2020-02-10T19:54:37Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > “Bazinga!” Lol! Autocorrect for the win there. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/25 "2020-02-10T20:05:14Z")
I could do it, of course. And had I done so, there’d be no more talk of this “Gandalf” who somehow managed to learn “affect normal fires” but not anything useful in a fight, like fireball, lightning bolt, cloud kill, web, or even stinking cloud. Harrumph. Non-dpsing wizard wannabe. Harrumph. Not my fault I was busy raising hell in Antonica at the time… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/26 "2020-02-10T23:39:28Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think we would need to define defeat. Isn’t part of the problem that A) You can’t fully kill Sauron without destroying the Ring and B) The Ring ultimately wants to get back to Sauron. > > So even if Galadriel took the Ring and rose to power, eventually the Ring would betray her and work it’s way towards Sauron. At best it’s a stall. Not if she, Gandalf or someone else mastered the ring. If they master the Ring then it becomes _theirs,_ not Sauron’s and Sauron is rendered powerless just as he was when the Ring just as he did when it was destroyed, and for the same reason. Which is also why nobody can master the Ring without being corrupted; they are literally grafting the bulk of Sauron’s essence to themselves. That was one reason Sauron searched so hard for the Ring rather than just waiting for it to makes its way to him. One of the few lose scenarios for him would be someone somewhere quietly gaining the Ring and mastering it without him finding out until too late. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/27 "2020-02-10T23:43:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not if she, Gandalf or someone else mastered the ring. If they master the Ring then it becomes _theirs,_ not Sauron’s and Sauron is rendered powerless just as he was when the Ring just as he did when it was destroyed, and for the same reason. Which is also why nobody can master the Ring without being corrupted; they are literally grafting the bulk of Sauron’s essence to themselves. > > That was one reason Sauron searched so hard for the Ring rather than just waiting for it to makes its way to him. One of the few lose scenarios for him would be someone somewhere quietly gaining the Ring and mastering it without him finding out until too late. What do you figure happens if the Ring winds up with Bombadil? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/28 "2020-02-11T00:17:42Z")
I don’t think there’s such a thing as “quietly mastering the Ring”. The hypothetical finder would master the Ring by making use of it, to do very unsubtle things. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/29 "2020-02-11T00:22:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What do you figure happens if the Ring winds up with Bombadil? I’m pretty sure someone (Elrond?) says in the Books that the Ring would have no power over Bombadil and that he would probably just lose it eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/30 "2020-02-11T00:47:07Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Good point. Here’s the relevant portion from the letter (bolding mine): > > So Tolkien gives pretty good answer. > A) You probably need another Maiar to master the ring. > B) You either defeat Sauron by destroying the ring or **mastering** the ring (which is nigh impossible to do). Agreed. Gandalf’s feint towards the Gates of Mordor suggests that he wishes to convince Sauron that someone has begun to master the Ring, to draw Sauron’s forces away from Frodo (someone who has not completely mastered the Ring can still be defeated in battle by overwhelming force - which Sauron has). But it’s just as possible that Gandalf’s feint works for a different reason - that Sauron just gets a kick out of taunting his doomed foes, and sends his army to the Gates just for fun. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/31 "2020-02-11T00:48:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think there’s such a thing as “quietly mastering the Ring”. The hypothetical finder would master the Ring by making use of it, to do very unsubtle things. The finder would be mastered by the ring even as they used it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/32 "2020-02-11T02:04:17Z")
Bo Duke, by lulling Sauron to sleep. Get it? Bo-ring? Yeehaw! ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/33 "2020-02-11T02:13:07Z")
Batman if he’s prepared. Game, Set, Match! ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/34 "2020-02-11T12:43:54Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I could do it, of course. And had I done so, there’d be no more talk of this “Gandalf” who somehow managed to learn “affect normal fires” but not anything useful in a fight, like fireball, lightning bolt, cloud kill, web, or even stinking cloud. Harrumph. Non-dpsing wizard wannabe. Harrumph. Not my fault I was busy raising hell in Antonica at the time… Cant spell cast and DPS with a long sword at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/35 "2020-02-11T12:50:46Z")
I think the whole point of the “Ring that binds them all” was that its absolute power corrupted the user absolutely. Even if you could defeat Sauron with it, you would then become a “Sauron” yourself. Even Frodo succumbed to it in the end and wasn’t going to throw it into the fire. Only Gollum’s lust for it caused him to recklessly seize it and fall into the fire accidentally. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/36 "2020-02-11T13:05:09Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think the whole point of the “Ring that binds them all” was that its absolute power corrupted the user absolutely. Even if you could defeat Sauron with it, you would then become a “Sauron” yourself. Even Frodo succumbed to it in the end and wasn’t going to throw it into the fire. Only Gollum’s lust for it caused him to recklessly seize it and fall into the fire accidentally. Eru: “Yessss…‘accidentally’” ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/37 "2020-02-11T16:53:28Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Eru: “Yessss…‘accidentally’” Sam: “Definitely accidentally. Just like Master Frodo said. Yesssir, nobody put one hand on his leg and grabbed his arm with the other and threw him just like my Gaffer taught me to move sacks of potatoes. Totally just slipped.” ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/38 "2020-02-11T21:46:17Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think the whole point of the “Ring that binds them all” was that its absolute power corrupted the user absolutely. Even if you could defeat Sauron with it, you would then become a “Sauron” yourself. Even Frodo succumbed to it in the end and wasn’t going to throw it into the fire. Only Gollum’s lust for it caused him to recklessly seize it and fall into the fire accidentally. This was the point I was trying to make. The answer is no one because the Ring will corrupt anyone to suit its own whims. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/39 "2020-02-13T06:31:13Z")
The thing about the Ring is that Sauron put almost half of his personal Power in it. _anyone_ that gets the ring and is able to access the totality of that power could be a serious competitor to him, on a personal-power/mystic level. Of course, actually wielding that sort of Power is way out of range for most mortals. But any of the Istari could do so, by virtue of their basic nature and training. Thus Gandalf, Saruman or even conceivably Radaghast or the almost-unmentioned blue wizards could do so. Similarly, those of the Elves that had spent enough time training with similar Powers could wield the Ring. Notably the keepers of the Elven rings: Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan.(Cirdan’s ring went to Gandalf later on) Any of the great leaders of Middle-earth could access a bit of the Ring’s power, to boost their ability to present a military opponent to Sauron. But on a personal-power level, the likes of Aragorn would simply not be in the same league. Mighty he may be as counted among Men, but compared to the primordial beings that Sauron or Gandalf are, he is nothing. Even compared to the (original and ancient) Elves like Galadriel , Aragorn is pretty much small change. Eventually, of course, the One Ring would corrupt anyone who uses it. There was simply too much of Sauron in it. True mortals would corrupt almost immediately, as Gollum was becoming and as the Ringwraiths were by their lesser Rings. Higher beings may resist for a longer while, but Gandalf quite clearly states that even he would fall under the Ring’s Influence and become a terrible danger himself. (Although I wonder if this was still true of Gandalf the White. He had been cleansed and Reborn to a much purer state, not truely of Middle-Earth any more and thus might well have been unable to be influenced or wield Sauron’s ring afterwards…) ---
**Author:** ![Scribble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scribble/32/3317_2.png) [@Scribble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scribble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/40 "2020-02-13T07:11:04Z")
I once got to overhear a lively discussion about whether samurai Jerry Seinfeld and ninja George Costanza could, working together, defeat Sauron. The debate was inconclusive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647.md?page=3)