# Who could use the Ring to successfully overthrow Sauron? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [February 8, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647 "2020-02-08T22:28:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/61 "2020-02-13T22:39:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think there’s such a thing as “quietly mastering the Ring”. The hypothetical finder would master the Ring by making use of it, to do very unsubtle things. I thought the Ring always had a desire to find its way back to Sauron. Not overtly but things like slipping off Isildur’s finger at an inopportune moment. Unfortunately for the Ring Smeagol found it and sat on it in a cave for a long time. Smeagol aside wouldn’t the Ring try to betray whoever has it to find its way back to Sauron? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/62 "2020-02-13T22:46:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t see anything about “again” there. Inferred from the way G talks about him the way you’d talk about an old friend. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/63 "2020-02-13T22:50:38Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Faramir was top of the aristocracy (and near-equivalent to royalty in the absence of Aragorn) As far as class consciousness goes, Faramir’s father and older brother were consumed by lust for the Ring and its power, which brought about the destruction of Boromir because his solitary pursuit of Frodo separated him from the rest of the Fellowship right when the Uruk-Hai attacked. Faramir is rather in the vein of folktales where the youngest son succeeds in a challenge after the older sons have failed. Except in folktales they always come in threes. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/64 "2020-02-14T00:31:13Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > That being said, I’ve never understood why Sauron put so much power into the ring when doing so would ultimately make him vulnerable. The power of Maiar was large, but not strongly tied to the World. That is why many of them would clothe themselves in flesh, in order to more easily affect the world. But it created a vulnerability, since their bodies could then be wounded or destroyed. Sauron took it a step further by creating a worldly focus for his power. With all of his power embodied in the ring, he maximized his power (and multiplied it by subverting the other rings), with minimal risk. It was never going to leave his hand, and even if it did, it would make its way back to him. Nothing short of its original forge at his seat of power could destroy it, so it’s not like he was risking much, right? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/65 "2020-02-14T01:22:50Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The power of Maiar was large, but not strongly tied to the World. That is why many of them would clothe themselves in flesh, in order to more easily affect the world. But it created a vulnerability, since their bodies could then be wounded or destroyed. Sauron took it a step further by creating a worldly focus for his power. With all of his power embodied in the ring, he maximized his power (and multiplied it by subverting the other rings), with minimal risk. It was never going to leave his hand, and even if it did, it would make its way back to him. Nothing short of its original forge at his seat of power could destroy it, so it’s not like he was risking much, right? Right - it’s not like anyone ever walks there. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/66 "2020-02-14T02:32:29Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Right - it’s not like anyone ever walks there. One doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/67 "2020-02-15T06:41:25Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Inferred from the way G talks about him the way you’d talk about an old friend. I agree that it’s not clear they’ve ever met, much less “again”. But it seems improbable that they hadn’t met. Gandalf had been visiting the Shire since before Bilbo’s time, and been seen at intervals since, until he passed over the sea, a span of at least 130 years. Bombadil’s domain was on the border of the Shire and on the way to Bree. They’ve met. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/68 "2020-02-16T20:35:14Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But if the ring contained much of Sauron’s ‘power’ - doesn’t that effectively make the victor the new Sauron? Get a copy of “Letters” and read all of letter 246 (already cited). It contains key information, not just on this immediate topic. Tolkien goes on to say that if Frodo had ultimately kept the Ring, the Nine would’ve flattered and deceived him until Sauron arrived. > [@](#): > > Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/69 "2020-02-16T20:56:52Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Get a copy of “Letters” and read all of letter 246 (already cited). It contains key information, not just on this immediate topic. Tolkien goes on to say that if Frodo had ultimately kept the Ring, the Nine would’ve flattered and deceived him until Sauron arrived. Yeah. The whole point of the thread is to identify who would be one of the (as Tolkien said): “very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from” (Sauron). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2020, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/70 "2020-03-22T13:01:19Z")
One person we haven’t discussed explicitly - Isildur. After the defeat of Sauron, could he have used the Ring to dominate Middle-Earth and become its new Dark Lord? He had natural authority as High King of Gondor and Arnor, had the Ring by right of conquest, and presumably had a lot of force of will and natural command ability. Had he not died at the Battle of Gladden Field, the history of Middle Earth might well have been very different. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/71 "2020-03-22T13:19:02Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Yeah. The whole point of the thread is to identify who would be one of the (as Tolkien said): “very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from” (Sauron). Dean Winchester. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/72 "2020-03-22T16:18:50Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Bazinga! > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > “Bazinga!” Dr. Cooper aside, I’m not quite sure how these critters would be able to make use of the ring: [Bazinga rieki - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazinga_(jellyfish))) [Euglossa bazinga - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euglossa_bazinga) > [@Andy\_L](#): > > One person we haven’t discussed explicitly - Isildur. After the defeat of Sauron, could he have used the Ring to dominate Middle-Earth and become its new Dark Lord? He had natural authority as High King of Gondor and Arnor, had the Ring by right of conquest, and presumably had a lot of force of will and natural command ability. Had he not died at the Battle of Gladden Field, the history of Middle Earth might well have been very different. Hmmm. Good point, and I agree. As a son of Elendil he was certainly a Man to be reckoned with. With Sauron rendered virtually impotent in the early years after his defeat, there’s a lot that Isildur, more aggressively using the Ring, could have done… but it would probably only have ended up with him being another Gollum, albeit with a glorious crown. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-could-use-the-ring-to-successfully-overthrow-sauron/847647/73 "2020-03-22T16:26:00Z")
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