# Who counts as a "Southerner"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540 "2013-08-29T23:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/181 "2013-09-05T19:44:28Z")
Well, according to the fantabulous **Black Dynamite** , Roscoe invented it after not having much success with “Roscoe’s Chili and Donuts.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/182 "2013-09-06T10:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > **Slackerinc** : …the default image in a reader’s mind of a Southerner is someone who looks like Bo and Luke Duke, or Paula Deen. Strange, isn’t it? Why don’t they think of Edward R. Murrow, Sela Ward, Joanne Woodward, or Colbert? Only Woodword kept her accent. It’s a crying shame when anyone has to change a Southern accent into something different just to be believable. Colbert is from the Deep South – Charleston, S.C. It’s a beautiful small city. What do Cybill Shepherd, Kathy Bates, Cherry Jones, and Tina Turner have in common? They’re all from West Tennessee – which is very different from East Tennessee where you could have found Patricia Neal. I think it’s selling out to change your accent intentionally. Your accent is a reflection of your family’s history. (BTW, there are _many_ Southern accents. I read a book once, a true story, of a Jew who grew up about thirty miles north of me. She made fun of “arsh potatoes.” Until I read that, I thought my childhood memories of how to pronounce “Irish potatoes” was a dream. Grits are **good** – especially cheese grits with sugar and butter. Don’t use the instant grits for real flavor. My daughter-in-law turns up her nose at them without even trying them. She thinks everything Southern is inferior. Same thing with black-eyed peas. > [@](#): > > **Shagnasty** : The ignorant stereotype of Southerners only being poor white rednecks was never true and is especially untrue today. It is a vibrant region with many distinct subcultures and their own histories that get rolled up into the label ‘Southern’. That would be a good label for the collection of subcultures as a whole if people like yourself and the media didn’t constantly insist that it only implies traits in white people they don’t like or understand. Amen, amen! > [@](#): > > **Labrador Receiver** : There is almost no difference between a small town in NC and a small town in SC. Ditto TN and GA. But the differences that do exist are powerful differences. I grew up in West Tennessee which is predominately Democrats. East Tennessee is Republican territory in general. Even Nashville in Middle Tennessee voted for Obama. Meanwhile, there is a small town in North Carolina that is erksome to me. Cary, N.C. is a pretty town, but it appears to consist mostly of Yankees who have relocated and loath Southern ways. They ridicule us and the way we talk. When I talk about what it was like growing up in West Tennessee, they don’t believe me. They sneered at some of my favorite places in Paris, France too. They didn’t like Paris or the French. I’ll bet the feeling was mutual. I _adored_ my trip there and was made to feel very welcome. But there were also lovely exceptions living in Cary too. If someone wants to say they are “Southern,” I won’t argue with them – especially if they are in the SEC. I wish Chris Matthews would grow up a little in his attitude toward Southern states. My neighborhood is more integrated than Philly is. My neighborhood is called “The Little United Nations” in Nashville. **elucidator** , don’t you remember who gave their lives for Texas? David Crockett and Sam Houston, for example. David lived down the road from one Great-Grandfather and across the road from the my Great-Great Grandfather on the other side of my family. He was their Congressman. You be respectful to me or else. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/183 "2013-09-06T10:44:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Meanwhile, there is a small town in North Carolina that is erksome to me. Cary, N.C. is a pretty town, but it appears to consist mostly of Yankees who have relocated and loath Southern ways. They ridicule us and the way we talk. When I talk about what it was like growing up in West Tennessee, they don’t believe me. They sneered at some of my favorite places in Paris, France too. They didn’t like Paris or the French. These people loathe Southern ways, and hate France and the French? Kind of hard to picture that combo, especially as they aren’t, I dunno, rural New Englanders who still live on the farm or something like that. Musing on this some more, it occurs to me that (since we are now in IMHO) \*my \*personal conception of “Southerner” can largely be defined by the litmus test of whether someone believes the South was on the right side of the Civil War. I grew up in NC, but I always knew the Confederates were “the bad guys”, even as a little kid–and found it very odd and offputting when I discovered there was a memorial to Confederate soldiers in town. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/184 "2013-09-06T11:41:29Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I read a book once, a true story, of a Jew who grew up about thirty miles north of me. She made fun of “arsh potatoes.” Until I read that, I thought my childhood memories of how to pronounce “Irish potatoes” was a dream. I was well into my 20s before I realized that when my grandmother said “arsh taters” it was actually “Irish potatoes.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/185 "2013-09-06T12:32:56Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > … **elucidator** , don’t you remember who gave their lives for Texas? David Crockett and Sam Houston, for example. David lived down the road from one Great-Grandfather and across the road from the my Great-Great Grandfather on the other side of my family. He was their Congressman. You be respectful to me or else. Sam Houston didn’t give his life for Texas. He was commander in the battle the Texians actually _won_! He was governor when Texas voted to secede; refusing to swear allegiance to the Confederacy, he was forced out of office. Houston said Jefferson Davis was “ambitious as Lucifer and cold as a lizard.” Thank you for calling David Crockett by his full name; he never cared for “Davy.” ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/186 "2013-09-06T12:48:08Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > But the differences that do exist are powerful differences. I grew up in West Tennessee which is predominately Democrats. Not really. Nashville and Memphis have strong blue pockets, but all the little towns are red as can be. There are only around a dozen blue counties in Tennnessee, total. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, there is a small town in North Carolina that is erksome to me. Cary, N.C. is a pretty town, but it appears to consist mostly of Yankees who have relocated and loath Southern ways. Cary is not really a small town in NC. It’s very much a large part of the Raleigh metropolitan area, comparable to Alpharetta, GA. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/187 "2013-09-06T18:11:46Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Sam Houston didn’t give his life for Texas. He was commander in the battle the Texians actually _won_! He was governor when Texas voted to secede; **refusing to swear allegiance to the Confederacy** , he was forced out of office. Ah, well then, he must not have been a Southerner, according to **SlackerInc**. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/188 "2013-09-06T22:19:01Z")
My litmus test is for modern-day people who do not face any penalty for flying the stars and bars (or require any courage to do so). ---
**Author:** ![LovesBeagles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@LovesBeagles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LovesBeagles)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/189 "2013-09-07T02:31:40Z")
You don’t have to be born here to be a southerner as long as you get here as fast as you can, bless your heart–lol. Doug Bowe got it right back on page 1. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/190 "2013-09-07T13:59:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Musing on this some more, it occurs to me that (since we are now in IMHO) \*my \*personal conception of “Southerner” can largely be defined by the litmus test of whether someone believes the South was on the right side of the Civil War. I grew up in NC, but I always knew the Confederates were “the bad guys”, even as a little kid–and found it very odd and offputting when I discovered there was a memorial to Confederate soldiers in town. Are you asserting that belief that the Confederacy was in the right is the mainstream one in the South? Note that there is a huge difference between memorializing relatives who fought and died in a war, and endorsing the cause they died for. I’d find it odd and off-putting to bury over 260,000 young men - sons, fathers, husbands, brothers - and not memorialize them in some way. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > My litmus test is for modern-day people who do not face any penalty for flying the stars and bars (or require any courage to do so). That describes everyone, then, as the most common reaction to the Confederate flag is [“no reaction”:](http://www.people-press.org/2011/04/08/civil-war-at-150-still-relevant-still-divisive/) > [@](#): > > Fewer than one-in-ten (8%) say they display the Confederate flag in places such as their home or office, on their car or on their clothing; 91% say they do not. The number that displays the Confederate flag is just a small fraction of the 75% who say they display the American flag in their homes or offices, on their cars or their clothing. > > Far more African Americans than whites have a negative reaction to the Confederate flag (41% to 29%). Still, about as many blacks have no reaction (45%) as a negative reaction to the Confederate flag. Among whites, 61% have no reaction. > > Whites who consider themselves Southerners have a more positive reaction to the Confederate flag than do other whites: 22% say they react positively when they see the Confederate flag displayed, compared with 8% of all whites and just 4% of whites who do not consider themselves Southerners. Amongst white folks who consider themselves Southerners, “no reaction” still leads the pack with 64%. The same poll found that 43% of American black folks considered themselves Southerners, so the **BrainGlutton** definition is well and truly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/191 "2013-09-07T22:13:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Whites who consider themselves Southerners have a more positive reaction to the Confederate flag than do other whites: 22% say they react positively when they see the Confederate flag displayed, compared with 8% of all whites and just 4% of whites who do not consider themselves Southerners. Over a 5 to 1 ratio: there ya go. But I’m not just talking about the flag. I’m saying that if you live in the South or hail from there, but would readily admit with no caveats that the Confederacy was “the bad guys” in the Civil War, you are not what I would think of as a Southerner, and that’s a good thing. If you even hedge and say both sides were good and bad, “it’s complicated”, “what about Sherman”, yadda yadda, then you’re a Southerner in my book, and that’s \*not \*a good thing. Your link is interesting, btw: thanks. Another relevant quote: > [@](#): > > Whites who consider themselves Southerners are the only group in which substantially more view public officials’ praise for Confederate leaders as appropriate rather than inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/192 "2013-09-07T22:18:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “what about Sherman”, His “retreat to the sea” was kind of tacky. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/193 "2013-09-07T23:21:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Over a 5 to 1 ratio: there ya go. Bear in mind that the flag means different things to different people. Many use it as a symbol of the South, with no endorsement of the policies of a government from 150 years ago. For others, it’s a symbol of rebellion in general. For others, rural living. And so forth. > [@](#): > > But I’m not just talking about the flag. I’m saying that if you live in the South or hail from there, but would readily admit with no caveats that the Confederacy was “the bad guys” in the Civil War, you are not what I would think of as a Southerner, and that’s a good thing. If you even hedge and say both sides were good and bad, “it’s complicated”, “what about Sherman”, yadda yadda, then you’re a Southerner in my book, and that’s \*not \*a good thing. This is IMHO and all, but that seems bizarre, like defining “Canuck” as people opposed to independence for Quebec, or “Cheesehead” as a person who loves the Packers more than their children. The poll I linked to makes it clear that people who consider themselves Southerers aren’t using it anything like you do, unless you think that many black folks are unwilling to condemn the Confederacy. Is there something wrong with a term like “neo-Confederate” or “Confederate apologist”? Then people would know what you meant, which is the point of a language, after all. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/194 "2013-09-07T23:51:56Z")
I specifically said I was not just talking about Confederate apologists, but also those who describe it as a murky situation with no clear right or wrong side. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/195 "2013-09-08T00:17:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I specifically said I was not just talking about Confederate apologists, but also those who describe it as a murky situation with no clear right or wrong side. Sometimes I wish the revolution had failed, and we were discussing the traitor George Washington and the heroic Benedict Arnold. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/196 "2013-09-08T00:45:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I specifically said I was not just talking about Confederate apologists, but also those who describe it as a murky situation with no clear right or wrong side. You can create any definitions you like in **SlackerIncWorld**. But nobody else has to accept them. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/197 "2013-09-08T02:30:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I specifically said I was not just talking about Confederate apologists, but also those who describe it as a murky situation with no clear right or wrong side. “Revisionists”, perhaps? Spares you the broad-brush dilemma of slandering other Southerners, and allows you to include people who describe the Civil War as a murky situation but aren’t from the South, who are otherwise unaccounted for in your unique taxonomy. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/198 "2013-09-08T03:03:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Sometimes I wish the revolution had failed, and we were discussing the traitor George Washington and the heroic Benedict Arnold. 🙂 Riiiight, because the Declaration of Independence is full of [rants defending slavery](http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/199 "2013-09-08T03:56:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Riiiight, because the Declaration of Independence is full of [rants defending slavery](http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html). My point was that history is written by the victors, but the US Constitution preserved the institution of slavery. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/200 "2013-09-08T05:17:27Z")
I’m not claiming though that there was a clear “good” and “bad” side in the Revolutionary War. In the Civil War, definitely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=11)