# Who counts as a "Southerner"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540 "2013-08-29T23:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/61 "2013-08-31T21:22:29Z")
To me “Southerner” means anybody who is white, born and raised in any one of the Confederate states. the exception of Texas. Texans are too proud to share their moniker with anyone else. ETA: [Confederate states list](http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0194016.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/62 "2013-08-31T21:28:11Z")
Everybody on the OP’s list is a Southerner. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/63 "2013-08-31T21:52:17Z")
Again, yes, parts of Illinois, Indiana, and Oklahoma are Southern, in the socio-economic-cultural sense that Joel Garreau argues for. Again, look at the map in the link I gave. Quit just reading my post and deciding that you can’t be bothered to look at my links. Better yet, buy a copy of _The Nine Nations of North America_ and read it. Sometimes an argument can’t be summarized in a single post or even a single website. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/64 "2013-08-31T22:09:32Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > To me “Southerner” means anybody who is white, born and raised in any one of the Confederate states. > > the exception of Texas. Texans are too proud to share their moniker with anyone else. > > ETA: [Confederate states list](http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0194016.html) Why do they have to be white? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/65 "2013-08-31T22:25:33Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Why do they have to be white? I’m not giving an official definition. Just the imagery that pops up in my mind when I hear “southerner”. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/66 "2013-08-31T23:01:29Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I’m not. 😉 > Mississippi is a lovely state with lots of great people. However, some people buy into stereotypes about the state (and the South as a whole) and I don’t always feel like arguing with people who aren’t worth my time. It’s astonishing to me how many people, in their zest to prove they aren’t racist, will smear an entire swath of the country. Especially considering it’s the part where most black people actually live. :rolleyes: But, you can’t cure stupid. Exactly. If I could live anywhere in the world, one of my top choices would be Natchez, Mississippi. I spent one of the best weekends of my life there and it was because of the beauty of the people and place. People from other places always ask ‘Why would you want to live there, it is so racist’. I am writing this from my lily white Boston suburb where school kids only get images of other races from National Geographic and I am only slightly kidding. I am not sure how to respond to that. Mississippi will always have more diversity in black/white terms than just about anywhere else and it works just great the vast majority of the time. I have written a few times about how my parents taught at all black schools when I was young and so did most of their friends we aren’t even especially liberal. That is just the way things roll in the South. It is just a different culture and mindset that most of the country can’t even begin to comprehend. It has its positives and negatives but I will defend it fiercely to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/67 "2013-08-31T23:43:36Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I grew up in Oklahoma. They are not part of “The South”. They would self identify as Western or “Mid-West”. Like Texans, Oklahomans may be in denial. 😃 At least as to the state’s [southern parts](http://aschmann.net/AmEng/#LargeMap). (The cool thing about that map is that you can click on the green dots and find YouTube examples of the local accents.) I think it’d be hard for anybody to listen to [Reba McEntire](http://youtu.be/5nZGmwyalHk?t=30s) (McAlester, Oklahoma) and say that she’s not Southern. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/68 "2013-09-01T01:36:43Z")
Is that what we’re looking for? The "southern accent’? Or “Southern”. Do you have to have the accent to be southern? ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/69 "2013-09-01T01:37:14Z")
I live in the ‘South’, but I identify as a Texan. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/70 "2013-09-01T01:47:07Z")
As for Oklahoma, I have spent more time in Oklahoma than I care to admit, and I would not consider it South. I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone from there who considered themselves such. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Indiana and Illinois? With all due respect, that is silly. > 🙂 > [@Shagnasty](#): > > You would be surprised. I used to fly to a small city in Indiana for work and it wasn’t quite Southern but it wasn’t far from it either. The definitely had a strong Southern accent and most of the food had commonalities to Southern food as well. I have a friend over here who is from small-town southern Indiana, and to hear him talk, the people in his his hometown would fit nicely in any hillbilly community in the Deep South. > [@bump](#): > > True. I think there’s a lot more shared culture than a lot of people like to admit; I went to a wedding in rural Georgia not long ago, and other than having different accents, there wasn’t anything unexpected about it in any way. Probably the most foreign thing to me was the lack of access roads on the interstate! One thing we never ever had in West Texas was grits. No one ate grits, no restaurant served them, I never noticed them in the store. And I’ve heard that an informal measure of the “true South” is the pervasion of grits. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/71 "2013-09-01T03:20:51Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Is that what we’re looking for? The "southern accent’? Or “Southern”. Do you have to have the accent to be southern? Of course not, but I think the range of the accent is a pretty good line of demarcation as to what areas are, culturally, Southern. (Whether the people living in those areas realize it or not.) Self-identification as “Southern” isn’t necessarily dispositive of the issue, since I would imagine a lot of folks might want to disclaim Southern heritage because of all the negative associations. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/72 "2013-09-01T03:22:16Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > One thing we never ever had in West Texas was grits. No one ate grits, no restaurant served them, I never noticed them in the store. And I’ve heard that an informal measure of the “true South” is the pervasion of grits. How about pit barbecue? Is that a thing in West Texas? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/73 "2013-09-01T03:30:54Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > How about pit barbecue? Is that a thing in West Texas? We did have that but largely over on the black side of town. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/74 "2013-09-01T11:02:56Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > So essentially you’re saying that journalists cater to (and thereby reinforce) stereotypes? I wouldn’t disagree. Okay, but isn’t this how we build and evolve a common language? As I say, this is a big part of how dictionaries normally define words. The “Deep South”, for instance, was not used anything like it is now until the mid-20th century (though originally it was narrower than it is now). Before that, a similar area had been called the “Lower South” way back when, but that usage is now archaic. This change seems to have spread through journalism, or at least that is how we track it now. > [@Shakes](#): > > I’m not giving an official definition. Just the imagery that pops up in my mind when I hear “southerner”. And that is fundamentally what defining terms is all about. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Mississippi is a lovely state with lots of great people. However, some people buy into stereotypes about the state (and the South as a whole) and I don’t always feel like arguing with people who aren’t worth my time. It’s astonishing to me how many people, in their zest to prove they aren’t racist, will smear an entire swath of the country. Especially considering it’s the part where most black people actually live. :rolleyes: But, you can’t cure stupid. I think it’s a bit disingenuous for Mississippians (that right?) to act as though they are completely misjudged and stereotyped in a way that they bear no responsibility for. I have never been there, but when I read that they [finally got around](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57569880/after-148-years-mississippi-finally-ratifies-13th-amendment-which-banned-slavery/) to ratifying the 13th Amendment in 2013, it gives me pause. And as you said, they have a very large black population. If their white population was as progressive as the white population of pretty much any other state (even someplace like Utah), they’d be a solid blue state. Instead, the heavily Republican white population [makes even Alabamians look progressive](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/03/other-notes-from-alabama-and-mississippi.html) on interracial marriage. “You can’t cure stupid”, indeed. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, what _should_ we be calling people from the South who don’t fit whatever stereotype you (or your fictional reporter) have in mind, if “Southerner” is out? Southrons? Southies? Do we insist on having a regional/cultural name for everyone? What about people from, say, Nevada? How about Delaware? > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Can I hear them speak? To me, a Southerner is someone who talks like a Southerner. 🙂 Good point. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Based on the OP’s descriptions alone, they’re all Southerners except the Floridians. They’re Floridians. As \*\*monstro \*\*said, you can’t exclude all Floridians from “Southerner” status. But I do wonder why you would think a child of Vietnamese immigrants, raised in Atlanta, would be “Southern”. Is this just a Florida-excluding variant of the (IMO facile) answer that it is anyone who was born in raised in the South? Yet we have someone posting in this thread who was born and raised in Mississippi and does not consider herself a “Southerner”. (I spent most of my childhood, starting from before I can remember, in Chapel Hill but certainly never considered myself one.) > [@Zebra](#): > > the south is > > Arkansas, Louisianan, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, the panhandle of Florida, North and South Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee and Kentucky. \*\*Wendell \*\*added several other portions of states (you only do this with Florida). I am not familiar enough with the others to say for sure, but I can definitely say that if you are including border states like the last three you listed, you’ve got to include southern Missouri–which is at least as “Southern” as any part of North Carolina I remember. (It’s also literally further south, in geographical terms, at its most southern point than the entire states of Virgina and Kentucky.) > [@](#): > > Southerners are people who are from these places and/or live there and adapted to the Southern way of life. Right, so the child of Yankees in the college town, or the child of Asian immigrants who lives in the big city, are getting a bit afield from that, agreed? Like **BrainGlutton** , I did not expect African Americans to call themselves “Southerners” (as opposed to “Southern”). But the cite provided has caused me to reconsider. I still wonder how they would be described by journalists though. ETA: > [@Shagnasty](#): > > Mississippi will always have more diversity in black/white terms than just about anywhere else and it works just great the vast majority of the time. I have written a few times about how my parents taught at all black schools when I was young and so did most of their friends we aren’t even especially liberal. That is just the way things roll in the South. > > It is just a different culture and mindset that most of the country can’t even begin to comprehend. It has its positives and negatives but I will defend it fiercely to this day. But let’s be real: the state is actually run by white people who get voted heavily against by that large black population. Basically, every time there’s an election for state government, the black population issues their “no confidence” vote but they just get outvoted by an impressive level of white solidarity. So I can’t think they are really happy with that state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/75 "2013-09-01T12:23:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have never been there, but when I read that they [finally got around](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57569880/after-148-years-mississippi-finally-ratifies-13th-amendment-which-banned-slavery/) to ratifying the 13th Amendment in 2013, [Delaware](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Ratification) in 1901 and Kentucky in 1976. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/76 "2013-09-01T16:15:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But I do wonder why you would think a child of Vietnamese immigrants, raised in Atlanta, would be “Southern”. Because he’s from Atlanta. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/77 "2013-09-01T16:17:26Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Can I hear them speak? To me, a Southerner is someone who talks like a Southerner. 🙂 > [@Zebra](#): > > Is that what we’re looking for? The "southern accent’? Or “Southern”. Do you have to have the accent to be southern? I grew up in a town of about 600 people in rural Alabama and I’ve lived in Alabama my entire life. Several years ago I visited Milwaukee with a friend and more than one person I met couldn’t believe I was from Alabama because they said I didn’t sound like I was from Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/78 "2013-09-01T16:22:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I think it’s a bit disingenuous for Mississippians (that right?) to act as though they are completely misjudged and stereotyped in a way that they bear no responsibility for. I have never been there, but when I read that they [finally got around](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57569880/after-148-years-mississippi-finally-ratifies-13th-amendment-which-banned-slavery/) to ratifying the 13th Amendment in 2013, it gives me pause. > > And as you said, they have a very large black population. If their white population was as progressive as the white population of pretty much any other state (even someplace like Utah), they’d be a solid blue state. Instead, the heavily Republican white population [makes even Alabamians look progressive](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/03/other-notes-from-alabama-and-mississippi.html) on interracial marriage. “You can’t cure stupid”, indeed. Yeah, just like how Americans from the years 2000-2008 were conservative warmongers. After all, we all elected Bush! :rolleyes: Thanks for proving my point. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/79 "2013-09-01T16:33:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For one thing, Southerners are white by definition. Ever hear an AA proclaim “I’m a Southerner!”? Just to respond to this, even though it’s already been addressed, this post exemplifies the characteristic one-off ignorance seen in a lot of your posts. You drive by, post something completely ignorant and incorrect and hardly if ever return to address it when people correct you. I’ve actually **never met** a black person born and raised in the South in my entire life (much of it lived in the South as a young adult and as an older adult after retiring from the military) that doesn’t identify as a Southerner. Are there some who would say they weren’t Southerners? Sure, since we’re throwing anecdotes though I’ll say in my experience I’ve never met one like that–I’m sure they exist. But given the food most of the Southern-raised blacks I’ve met eat, their speech patterns, and all kinds of other things about them I’d say for those individuals at least there would be “deep denial” if they said they weren’t Southerners at all. Maybe if they were kids of say, a black couple from Connecticut or something who intentionally eschewed Southern culture they might fall outside the norm, but I’ve not personally met anyone like that… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/80 "2013-09-01T17:02:58Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Yeah, just like how Americans from the years 2000-2008 were conservative warmongers. After all, we all elected Bush! > > :rolleyes: > > Thanks for proving my point. You wish. (Plenty of “Yankee” states never voted for Bush.) If Bush ever got a Reagan '84 or Nixon '72 type blowout you might have a bit more of a point. But no. You can keep trying to pretend like Mississippi can just blend into the rest of the country on these things, but the facts are against you. Speaking of blowouts, LBJ racked up a huge blowout win nationally against Goldwater, but in Mississippi he got 12 percent of the vote. Johnson also lost Georgia, South Carolina, and Louisiana, but he at least got over 40% in each state. Mississippi is clearly a special, special place, even within the Deep South. Then there’s Trent Lott, who had to resign his Majority Leader position because he harkened fondly back to segregation; but Mississippians kept voting him back in. In Virginia, a “Macaca” crack was enough to torpedo a rising star’s career. In Mississippi, Haley Barbour can say all kinds of [fucked up racist shit](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/12/20/haley-barbours-praise-of-citizen-councils-stirs-debate-about-racism.html)and keep getting reelected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=5)