# Who counts as a "Southerner"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540 "2013-08-29T23:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/121 "2013-09-02T17:12:24Z")
What that sentence is really saying is “As someone who was very much a typical Southern in his attitudes, Joe Schmoe had some trouble adjusting . . .” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/122 "2013-09-02T19:41:50Z")
People who live in what other people consider to be the South and do not consider themselves Southerners, or residents of any area who do not consider themselves to be off that area is an interesting concept. Does this issue exist for New Englanders, Texans or in areas of other countries? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/123 "2013-09-02T20:08:46Z")
As I said in a previous post, it seems to me that this insistence on the special nature of the region is as strong only in one other region of North America - namely, Quebec. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/124 "2013-09-02T21:20:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > People who live in what other people consider to be the South and do not consider themselves Southerners, or residents of any area who do not consider themselves to be off that area is an interesting concept. > > Does this issue exist for New Englanders, Texans or in areas of other countries? Since (I think) I’m the only person who’s posted that this applies to, I’d like to clarify. I am a Southerner. I live in the South, my family is from here, this is my home. I like it here. I do not define myself as being a Southerner though, and it isn’t something that’s deeply important to me, as it is to some others. I also do not fit many of the stereotypes that come to mind when someone thinks of a Southerner, but then, neither do most of the people I know. Stereotypes are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/125 "2013-09-02T21:30:36Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Since (I think) I’m the only person who’s posted that this applies to, I did not mean to imply that. I was thinking more of gerymandering Florida. 🙂 > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Stereotypes are stupid. Yes, they are, but they have some basis, else they would not be stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/126 "2013-09-02T21:30:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Does this issue exist for New Englanders, Texans or in areas of other countries? New England definitely has a strong overarching culture with many different subcultures just like the South has. Plenty of people have a strong New England identity with vocabulary and customs that are nearly unique to the region as well. I have lived in New England for 18 years and yet I don’t consider my self a New Englander and never will just because I don’t have the mindset. I consider myself somewhat of a foreigner in my own country. I am still a Southerner and always will be. I know others in similar situations that feel the same way so, yes, the issue exists for some other regions. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/127 "2013-09-03T01:11:45Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I have lived in New England for 18 years and yet I don’t consider my self a New Englander and never will just because I don’t have the mindset. I consider myself somewhat of a foreigner in my own country. I am still a Southerner and always will be. If I am understanding their positions correctly, some of the people posting in this thread would beg to differ and say you are no longer a Southerner. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/128 "2013-09-03T01:29:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If I am understanding their positions correctly, some of the people posting in this thread would beg to differ and say you are no longer a Southerner. I believe that where one was born and raised has a great deal to do with how one identifies oneself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/129 "2013-09-03T02:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s some correlation with geography, in that a Floridian from Lake City is probably more likely to also be a Southerner than a Floridian from Bradenton. Parts of Bradenton and the surroundings areas of Palmetto, Ellenton, and Parrish are very rural and would be defined as typically southern. As I said before, the families who have been in this area for five or so generations (like the members of mine) identify as Southerners. But what do I know…you guys are the experts. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/130 "2013-09-03T02:47:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If I am understanding their positions correctly, some of the people posting in this thread would beg to differ and say you are no longer a Southerner. It doesn’t matter what they think. I am a Southerner with 400 years of family history to back it up. Like I said earlier, it is like being Jewish. It is tribal and there are multiple ways in but only a few ways to leave. I hate to be the second or third person to break this to you but you are Southern too whether you like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/131 "2013-09-03T02:47:10Z")
As I said, Girlundone, I think you are very close to the line between the part of Florida that could be considered the “South” (i.e., the northern part of the state) and the part of Florida that could be considered not to be part of the “South” (i.e., the southern part of the state). I went to college in Sarasota. My aunt, uncle, and cousins lived in Bradenton. When I bicycled from my place near campus to their house, I was in effect crossing over the line between the part considered to be the “South” and the part not considered to be the “South.” ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/132 "2013-09-03T02:50:26Z")
> [@Girlundone](#): > > Well, Gee, Wendell Wagner, thanks for making that clear. I happen to live in South Florida, and it has a strong southern culture. Have you ever been here? [The Florida Cracker Trail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Cracker_Trail)runs through my town, far south of the panhandle. Last I checked, cracker culture was considered “southern”. > > How in the hell do you figure that “its only the southern part of Florida that’s not part of the South?” Sorry, no. You might live in the southern half of Florida, but you definitely do not live in South Florida. First of all, being a rather long state, Florida is most appropriately divided into _at least_ the North, Central and South regions. You live in Central Florida. Nothing above Lake Okeechobee is South Florida. Even large areas \*below \*the lake aren’t really “South Florida” in the cultural sense, which is what we’re really discussing. Even _well_ south of the lake, most of that area of the west coast of Florida is more appropriately described as Southwest Florida. The main reason for this is that the Everglades effectively divides the two coasts of the state below the lake. Really, at its most usefully descriptive definition, “South Florida” includes four counties _at the most_ - Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade, and Monroe. That’s what most people are thinking about when they speak of South Florida. The population of just those first three contiguous counties equals roughly _one third_ of the entire state’s population, with the other 2/3’s contained in the other _64 counties_. And that tri-county population center is tightly concentrated along the extreme southeastern coastline into one effective metropolitan area, and separated from the others geographically, demographically, economically, socially, culturally, politically and just about any other “-ally” you can think of. The quantity and quality of those multiple and profound levels of regional differentiation deserve a unique name, and that name happens to be South Florida. The Florida Cracker Trail ain’t in it, not even close, really. ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/133 "2013-09-03T04:06:55Z")
I am about 30 minutes south of the Tampa Bay Area, which is on the Gulf Coast, but is still considered South Florida by those who live here. Fwiw, [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida) says this about the region: > [@](#): > > As with all vernacular regions, South Florida has no official boundaries or status, and is defined differently by different sources. A 2007 study of Florida’s regions by Ary Lamme and Raymond K. Oldakowski found that Floridians surveyed identified “South Florida” as comprising the southernmost sections of peninsular Florida. This area includes the Miami metropolitan area (generally defined as Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties), the Florida Keys, and the interior region known as the Glades. Additionally, South West Florida, representing the state’s southern Gulf Coast, has emerged as a directional vernacular region. **Some respondents from as far northwest as the southern Tampa Bay area identified their region as being in South Florida rather than South West or Central Florida.** Not sure what you’re on about, Voltaire. The OP was about who is considered a “southerner”. Most of the native Floridians from this area that I know would most certainly identify as southerners. Both the University of \*South Florida \*and the _South Florida_ Museum are right close by me. Dummies musta built in the wrong spot. ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/134 "2013-09-03T04:45:55Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] I went to college in Sarasota. [/QUOTE] I’m going to guess New College? Did you ever venture out to Palmetto, or Parrish? And yes, I see what you’re saying about crossing over the areas considered southern and not southern (culturally), but because so many people living in Florida are from somewhere else, I still believe that it’s the “old Floridians” that tend to be the southern types, no matter what part of the state. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/135 "2013-09-03T05:11:43Z")
> [@Girlundone](#): > > I am about 30 minutes south of the Tampa Bay Area, which is on the Gulf Coast, but is still considered South Florida by those who live here. Fwiw, [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida) says this about the region: > > Not sure what you’re on about, Voltaire. The OP was about who is considered a “southerner”. Most of the native Floridians from this area that I know would most certainly identify as southerners. > > Both the University of \*South Florida \*and the _South Florida_ Museum are right close by me. Dummies musta built in the wrong spot. I agree with you that the people in your area are generally identified as Southerners. That’s sort of the main point - the people of South Florida do not generally identify as such. Someone said that South Florida isn’t part of “The South” and that’s true, but you seem to want to cling to an overly literal, inaccurate and unconventional definition of South Florida to say that it’s part of The South. It’s just not - it requires stretching and contorting the definition of the region beyond _any_ useful boundaries of classification. And you picking the one line in a wiki describing what _some_ people self-identify as – with everything else in the wiki completely agreeing with what I’ve said – does not strengthen your point. Adding the names of a few imprecisely and generically named institutions in your area isn’t very convincing, either. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/136 "2013-09-03T08:49:08Z")
FWIW, I have visited two places in Florida, other than just driving through: Sarasota and Palm Beach. They seemed rather different from each other culturally, but not having visited other parts of the state I can’t say much more than that. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > It doesn’t matter what they think. I am a Southerner with 400 years of family history to back it up. Like I said earlier, it is like being Jewish. It is tribal and there are multiple ways in but only a few ways to leave. > > I hate to be the second or third person to break this to you but you are Southern too whether you like it or not. Your first paragraph is sensible, but ah do believe that by the second one you may have a case of the vapours. ;0) I am no Southerner. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/137 "2013-09-03T09:05:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Does this issue exist … in areas of other countries? Yes. Often it’s linked to combinations of racism and no-true-scotsman fallacies. If your family moved to the area generations ago and you’ve spent all that time being told that you’ll never be “Hereist enough” because you don’t speak Hereist, then you learn Hereist and you’re told you won’t be Hereist enough because you don’t speak it with the right accent, then you get rid of your outsider accent and are told you didn’t get your schooling in Hereist, then your kids get their schooling in Hereist from kindergarten to college and they still get told “oh, but your grandparents weren’t born here” “actually, three of them were” “well, but your grandmother wasn’t”… that’s how you get whole towns in the middle of Here-country where people tell you with perfectly straight faces that they’re from Elsewhere, despite having been born and raised Here, speaking the language natively, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/138 "2013-09-03T09:12:28Z")
There are other cases where the descriptor has been appropriated by specific political movements. So, people who do not adhere to that movement will reject the kidnapped descriptor. This happened with “Basque” for about twenty years, but we seem to have gotten the original meanings back, at least locally (I still run into outsiders who buy the ugly version - which is a no true scotsman fallacy, actually, along the lines of “all Basque want independence, therefore if you do not you’re not Basque”). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/139 "2013-09-03T09:17:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > These strike me as somewhat contradictory. The only reason you could exempt some parts of Florida (which are, after all, more “southern” than the rest, if not “Southern”) is because people there do not share a culture and heritage with other Southerners. If a child of Vietnamese refugees grows up in a melting pot city like Atlanta, presumably spending a lot of time with other Vietnamese immigrants, why would he be Southern while the Jewish seniors in Boca Raton are not? So you view Atlanta as its own donut hole, culture-wise, and consider that nobody from there can be a Southerner? What is your criteria to define those holes? And when did the immigrants become refugees? Is it different if they are refugees and if they are immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/140 "2013-09-03T10:16:07Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > So you view Atlanta as its own donut hole, culture-wise, and consider that nobody from there can be a Southerner? That was quite a leap. No, I have only driven or flown through Atlanta, but I would assume that like most major cities it has a mix of cultures. I also assume that it has more Southerners living in it than any other city in the U.S., but I would not bet on the _majority_ of its population being inarguable Southerners. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=8)